Tanks and Tankery

[Boutros]

In my quest to improve my ability at playing my warrior, I have read numerous posts on numerous forums, and digested a ton of information. Yet I can't say that I have at any time encountered a discussion of group tactics for a tanking warrior. All the discussions tend toward talent distributions and gear selection. For me this seems a lot like Diablo 2 where mainstream (non lurker or DSFer produced) guides offered little more than instructing you on where to put your attribute and skill points and what equipment to chose. Thus I must turn to my fellow Lurkers to give me advice on actual strategy and tactics.

Thusfar I have managed to hold my own as a main tank in the early instances, but I get the impression that I could be in for trouble down the road as the difficulty of the instances and other group oriented encounters increases. While I find tanking a single elite fairly trivial, I am troubled when multiples are pulled and no crowd control is available or used. I often find myself running around frantically trying to save the cloth wearers, or tanking creeps that no one else is attacking. From my experiences some of this is from playing in groups where people don't focus on the most damaged creep, or assist the main tank, but objectively I can say I really don't have much idea how to obtain and hold aggro on groups of elites, or know if this is even possible. What should be my first move when a largeish pull is made? How can I keep the attention of multiple creeps off of the healer? Please instruct me.

[ArtegaAwayFromHome]

Okay, well, I'm on a friend's computer and I've forgotten my password, and the password-recovery system apparently isn't working, so I had to make a new account so I could add my thoughts while they were still fresh in my mind ^_^

For mass-aggro drawing, I tend to spam Thunder Clap. Since I generally don't do instance runs against mobs of equal or higher levels, I typically have no issues with rage-generation. Spamming Thunder Clap does a pretty good job of cementing them to you so long as you don't have a mage or priest unloading. Hitting a Demoralizing Shout (which you should be doing, anyway) followed by a Piercing Howl also generates a little bit of aggro, making it useful at the outset of the battle to get everything stuck to you, at which point you should start spamming Thunder Claps to KEEP them stuck to you. Keep Piercing Howl up at all times (or most times) to keep a mob from peeling off after a squishy cloth-wearer and to generate a little more Rage. Use Sweeping Strikes to actually KILL the mobs or to continue to deal damage to the primary mob and peel off a mob off the tank, if you're a secondary.

If the #$%& hits the fan, Challenging Shout followed with Retaliation works great for re-cementing them to you, but since Retaliation is on a thirty minute timer, it's best saved for times when you REALLY need it.

If a mob peels off, quickly whack them with Mocking Blow. If Mocking Blow is still cooling (which will happen occasionally), do a quick-shift to Defensive Stance to Taunt them back onto you, and follow that up with a Piercing Howl and/or a Disarm.

Of course, this all relies around the fact that you're able to quickly and easily generate Rage and you have Tactical Mastery :)

[Pantalaimon]

While I find tanking a single elite fairly trivial, I am troubled when multiples are pulled and no crowd control is available or used. I often find myself running around frantically trying to save the cloth wearers, or tanking creeps that no one else is attacking. [right][snapback]63862[/snapback][/right]

First of all, I don't have a warrior. But as a priest I get dragged on many runs with many different group dynamics...

Sometimes, you tanking a creep that nobody else is attacking is not necessarily a bad thing. One SM run I remember we had a completely gung-ho rogue who didn't know the first thing about aggro management and hadn't even learnt feint *sigh* So the rest of the party just learned to assist the rogue (call him a secondary tank :unsure: ) to get his target killed quickly and save my mana since he pulled the aggro of anything he touched.

Meanwhile, the tank is a really competent player and sees what we're doing, and has no problem sitting there all by his lonesome trying to beat up two mobs with just my renew on him and the occasional flash heal.

Basically, I'm just saying that group dynamics dictate alot of your tactics, especially as a tank. Since you're called upon to fix other people's screw ups and ignorance (whaddya mean I shouldn't cast arcane missiles right away?), you can be frustrated just simply by other people's stupidity, which is in no way your fault. Alot of tanks always feel like it's their fault when a cloth type dies. Most of the times it's not. Rare is the group with no crowd control at all. Your second statement is most likely correct, they're not using their CC, and there's only so much you can do to try and save them from themselves.

[Tal]

As a tank your first focus is to keep your healer safe. The other squishy cloth guys should be running TO you if they get a mob. Yes towards you. Not away. TOWARDS. If you let them know this from the beginning it really helps. Generally you should have no trouble keeping multiple mobs on you if your DPS class keep their pace steady. For me I would be in defensive stance for a multi-mob pull simply because your best tools for keeping aggro, (sunder armor, demoralizing shout, and taunt) are in that stance. There is nothing wrong with staying in battle stance as Artega has said, just so long as you realize you might struggle a little bit to pull a mob off if Mocking Blow is recharging. IMHO its worth the talent points to be able to hold onto more rage when shifting stances simply because a well played warrior will shift stances often depending on the situation.

And you will run around like a chicken with it's head chopped off to soak up adds. But you should be fine so long as you train people at the beginning of the fight to use the assist command: Fkeys (F1, F2, F3, F4, F5) and then the f key they can see what you are targetting and stay on that mob until it dies. They should repeat the assist process until the fight is over.

[Sabra]

But you should be fine so long as you train people at the beginning of the fight to use the assist command: Fkeys (F1, F2, F3, F4, F5) and then the f key they can see what you are targetting and stay on that mob until it dies. They should repeat the assist process until the fight is over.
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:( Okay, this is a related non-related question. I've had trouble with the assist functions so far. I've searched this forum and a few others as well and read the Blizz manual, but I'm still not clear on exactly how this function is activated or directed.

So far it seems that if I click on a cohort and then press the "f" key, I begin to assist that player, but it's been unreliable for the most part, especially when there are a few cohorts in a party. (I'm sure it's the clicker who is unreliable more than the function.)

Could someone enlighten me? And please don't forget to imagine that you're talking to a 4 year old.

[Treesh]

:(  Okay, this is a related non-related question. I've had trouble with the assist functions so far. I've searched this forum and a few others as well and read the Blizz manual, but I'm still not clear on exactly how this function is activated or directed.

So far it seems that if I click on a cohort and then press the "f" key, I begin to assist that player, but it's been unreliable for the most part, especially when there are a few cohorts in a party. (I'm sure it's the clicker who is unreliable more than the function.)

Could someone enlighten me? And please don't forget to imagine that you're talking to a 4 year old.
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I consider the 'f' key more of a "target my target" than an actual "assist" key. I leave the "attack on assist" option off (can be found under Interface Options iirc and is off by default) on the majority of my characters because I don't want my squishy and semi-squishy characters running up there to beat on things. Hitting F1-F5 will select your teammates in order from top to bottom. You will always be F1. The person on the bottom will be F5. My biggest use of "f" is to make sure that I am going to be attacking the same thing as whoever is pulling or to make sure I'm not going to be attacking the critter that's going to be sheeped by the mage. For me, "assist" is a misnomer for the key so I always refer to it as "target my target", thanks to Freespace and Freespace 2.

Since I'm repeating myself, I'll stop and see if I actually answered your question or just muddied the waters even more.

[mjdoom]

I must preface my statements here with the disclaimer that I have never really played a tank class in a party setting. I have very little clue how to use things like assist. Because I have been playing a priest pretty much exclusively my perspective of any battle is skewed...

For any battle in a group setting (more than 3 characters) my eyes are firmly planted on the top left corner of the screen and those little green bars. I only occasionally glance at the action to see who is being targetted and watch for adds. (It's ironic that this mentality can occasionally get me killed because it is harder to see my own health and debuffs... oh how I wish I could have a mini portrait and bar for myself...)

On to the actual content of my post. It seems to me that most of the time mobs come screaming at me and get me in trouble are in bigger pulls where each tank is responsible for different mobs and there isn't one big assist party. In these situations if a tank does not keep his targets glued to him then any secondary targets that aren't taking direct damage are prime candidates for aggroing on me due to my healing. Targets that are directly taking damage rarely aggro on me.

Artega mentioned in his post skills like Thunderclap that work as aoe aggro drawing effects. It seems to me like these are absolutely critical to the life of a cloth wearer in large situations (the final battle of Uldaman comes to mind). I see some tanks who don't seem to understand that even though they are concentrating on dropping a mob that if they don't hold the aggro of secondary mobs my healing will draw them to me. My only reservation is that I have never played those classes so I'm not certain how accurate my view is.

In the end run my egotistical perspective is that if the priest goes down everyone's life becomes exponentially more difficult, even with a secondary healer. When I die with another 2500 mana in the bank that is a big loss. Leaving that primary mob alive for an extra 2 seconds whacking on you because you redirected to hit the secondary mob to save aggro is so much better than losing your priest because that secondary target wasn't getting whacked enough. If you keep that target off the priest (s)he can easily heal back the 2 or 3 extra hits you have taken.

Wow, that was a bit long winded and I'm not certain if I got my point across... Basically, knock everything across the head (or taunt it or whatever) on a regular basis so that you decrease the likelihood of healing drawing a mob to your priest.

- mjdoom

p.s. If you have a paladin with Blessing of Salvation always remember to use it when big pulls are inevitable. This will also help immensely and can be more useful than the mana regen of Blessing of Wisdom. And for gosh sakes don't put Blessing of Might on a priest (yes, I've seen it done!).

[Sabra]

Dear Treesh:

Your comments on target my target were most helpful. F1-5 noted. To clarify ~ I will automatically assist a team member just by pushing his/her appropriate F key? That's All there is to it? Thanks!

This I can do!!!

[Treesh]

Dear Treesh:

Your comments on target my target were most helpful. F1-5 noted. To clarify ~ I will automatically assist a team member just by pushing his/her appropriate F key? That's All there is to it? Thanks!

This I can do!!!
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Not quite. Sorry to not quite explain well enough. Press the F2-F5 (since F1 is always going to be yourself) to select a teammate and then the 'f' key (regular 'f', not the function keys) and you'll target the critter your teammate is targeting. Sorry I muddled things a bit with my lack of shutting up. ;)

[Cryptic]

Hi all,

I’m currently playing a rogue. Build is combat-oriented over assassination, with sword/dagger combo and heavy focus on quick 1-on-1 kills, since I mostly solo. Solo play has been great – I always gain at least 1 level a night, usually 2, with lots of treasure, and mining and skinning bringing in the cash. I currently have 95 gold at level 36 which I think is pretty good. With vanish, distract, stealth, sprint, etc., I can choose virtually every battle and win every one I decide upon. But it’s lonely. So I’ve tried grouping. Results have ranged from mediocre to disastrous.

In warrior-less groups (which are actually the norm on my server, at least Horde-side), I play dodge-n-parry tank with healer backup. I also pull if there isn’t a hunter. No problem keeping aggro of course. We kill very quickly and I only die if we get too many adds.

In warrior groups, my experiences have been horrible. I’m used to dealing massive DPS 1-on-1, and can fight up to 4 at once if necessary, using gouge, kidney shot, etc. I can kill most mobs my level in 6-12 seconds depending on criticals and combo accrual. But warriors become furious with me when I use these abilities, so I’m reduced to puller.

After that, I have no role. My stealth abilities are nominal so I tend not to use them. I’ve actually had warriors snap at me and tell me to play a rogue (meaning stealth over combat), not a fighter, even though I’ve pointed out they’re dying and I’m not, and I’m leveling faster than just about anyone else I know. Which doesn’t bring a warm response. So usually, I pull, make a half-hearted stealth to kill a stray mob if they’re going after cloth, and then I just stand there using first aid as need be. I then smile and nod at the criticisms afterward – the warrior telling me to do nothing because he can’t shift my aggro, and the others wondering why I’ve become so meek ever since the warrior has come on board. They blame me for not “carrying my weight” and loafing and making the warrior do all the work!

So I had a warrior ask me last night – why bother grouping? And I responded, you know, I have no idea. And I abandoned the party and left my guild. In groups I get worse experience, less fun, less participation, less treasure, and criticism. Soloing I get great experience, fun, full participation, all of the treasure, and no one to yell at me. Sure, it’s lonely, but really, why bother with a group that has a warrior in it?

My question is, if I should ever want to join a warrior-focused group, what should my role be? If the answer is either “re-spec to a stealth build,” “do what you’re told” or “stay out of the way,” I already know what to do about it. But if I can, from the warrior perspective, have a crucial and effective role in a group, I’d love to know what it is. Thanks!

[Ravage]

My question is, if I should ever want to join a warrior-focused group, what should my role be?  If the answer is either “re-spec to a stealth build,” “do what you’re told” or “stay out of the way,” I already know what to do about it.  But if I can, from the warrior perspective, have a crucial and effective role in a group, I’d love to know what it is. 

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I have a lev 29 warrior and until level 22 or so I hadn't grouped at all. I then got into a group doing Wailing Caverns, and since I had been soloing, I had no idea about aggro. Nothing was hitting me and the druids were doing all the tanking.
They asked me about it, but it wasnt a big deal as they were about 5 levels above me anyway and one could go to bear form and the other could heal.

After that, I started looking into argo. Up till then I hadnt even used Defensive stance at all. Now, I think I am a reasonably decent tank, and have learned how to gain agro, and hold it in most situations.

Since you have a high damage rogue, I wouldnt be able to pull agro off of you, so, as long as you tell me that before hand, and you are able to stand up to what you pull in, we should be fine. I would recommend that you look out for the healers and casters, and let me handle the 2-4 monsters that all get pulled in. If I am tanking 3 monsters, and one peals off to whack a healer, if you are able to spot that and rescue the healer, that is one less thing I need to worry about. Otherwise, try taking out one of the mosters that are whacking me in the back of the head, but try to do it in a way that will not pull ALL the monsters onto yourself. I have the armor and health to stand up to several mosters hittingme at once, and as long as the healer stays alive, they can heal me while you kill them all one at a time.
Remember that my defensive stance cuts my dmage bu 10% i think, so I cant kill the things as fast, but defensive stance also radiates more agro. I will spam demoralizing shout, and try to taunt things back to me if they are attacking someone else, but if you start hitting something, and it starts hitting you back, I'm cool with that :)

I guess, just try to use single target attacks and not AOE attacks and let me know you can handle the one so I dont think I have to rescue you.

Dobuya (Orc warrior on Proudmoore)

[Tal]

My question is, if I should ever want to join a warrior-focused group, what should my role be?  If the answer is either “re-spec to a stealth build,” “do what you’re told” or “stay out of the way,” I already know what to do about it.  But if I can, from the warrior perspective, have a crucial and effective role in a group, I’d love to know what it is.  Thanks!
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You've grouped with some craptacular warriors then. I've never had any trouble pulling aggro off a rogue so long as they're smart and not go full out on every mob. Just like playing a hunter/mage/warlock you need to learn to time your attacks to allow the tank to keep aggro and still do decent DPS. You'll get a feel for it as you progress. Your other role in groups is Crowd Control with sap and lock picking. Otherwise you assist the main tank with your DPS like the other DPS party members.

Since you have a high damage rogue, I wouldnt be able to pull agro off of you, so, as long as you tell me that before hand, and you are able to stand up to what you pull in, we should be fine.  I would recommend that you look out for the healers and casters, and let me handle the 2-4 monsters that all get pulled in.  If I am tanking 3 monsters, and one peals off to whack a healer, if you are able to spot that and rescue the healer, that is one less thing I need to worry about.  Otherwise, try taking out one of the mosters that are whacking me in the back of the head, but try to do it in a way that will not pull ALL the monsters onto yourself.  I have the armor and health to stand up to several mosters hittingme at once, and as long as the healer stays alive, they can heal me while you kill them all one at a time. 
Remember that my defensive stance cuts my dmage bu 10% i think, so I cant kill the things as fast, but defensive stance also  radiates more agro.  I will spam demoralizing shout, and try to taunt things back to me if they are attacking someone else, but if you start hitting something, and it starts hitting you back, I'm cool with that :)

I guess, just try to use single target attacks and not AOE attacks and let me know you can handle the one so I dont think I have to rescue you.

Dobuya (Orc warrior on Proudmoore)
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Thats the recipe for a rogue taking a dirt nap in later instances. Taunt is your friend and learning when to back off to normal attack's is the rogue's. Don't forget the liberal use of sunder armor, demoralizing shout, etc that I posted higher up in the thread.

[Sabra]

Sorry I muddled things a bit with my lack of shutting up. ;)
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Healing someone a million times in 4 hours means never having to say you're sorry. Thanks for the clarification, Treesh. I'm looking forward to using this new skill!

[Artega]

I've never much liked Defensive Stance, even with its increased-threat-generation junk. Taunt is resisted by anything more than a couple levels higher (read: instance end-bosses), and it has no real AE aggro-grabber like Battle Stance does (Dem Shout causes a little aggro, but not nearly as much as Thunder Clap or Sweeping Strikes.) I'm in Battle Stance at all times, only switching back to Defensive Stance for a quick Taunt if I can't simply hit them enough to bring them running back (since they're always moving at half speed due to Piercing Howl, I can generally afford to do this :) ), or whacking them with a Mocking Blow if they're likely to resist the Taunt.

If the #$%& hits the fan (such as in Gnomeregan, where one of those mobile alert systems spawned on us and we didn't notice it until it had time to spawn in about six more mobs), I hit Challenging Shout with Retaliation and go to town. I spam Piercing Howl and Thunder Clap to encourage the mobs to love me more, and leave it to the mages and rogues in the party to neutralize stragglers until Retaliation's effects wear off.

But honestly, I'd say Rogues are the least-useful party members. While they can do some incredible DPS (especially with Sunder Armor factored in) and they have some decent CC abilities, we've never really had more success with a Rogue over a Mage. Sure, they can pick pockets (whee?) and open locks (I'm a smith, and I have keys), but sheeping is better than Sapping (IMO), and single-target DPS doesn't beat AoE killing (with Improved Arcane Explosion. It was invaluable for the battle with Thermaplugg; our mage would nuke the bob-ombs while the shaman and I concentrated on beating the crap out of Therma and the priest healed everyone.)

For me, the ideal party is a Warrior (me, or even better if we can find someone who was stupid enough to go Protection specced :) ), a Shaman (they can take a few hits and frontload like mad), a Priest (or just me and a Priest), a Mage, and probably a Warlock for a Voidwalker minion and Soulstones, Health Stones, and all the other nifty things that make me love Warlocks.

[Treesh]

I've never much liked Defensive Stance, even with its increased-threat-generation junk.
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Defensive stance is so much easier on your healer though, especially if you have a high DPS character in the group as well so you don't have to worry too much about the damage output reduction from defensive stance. I can tell when GG or Tal switches from defensive to battle stance because I have to heal him so much more in a shorter period of time. Yes, thunderclap is darned handy and is great for keeping critters off of the squishies in the group, but staying in just one stance all the time doesn't really work all that well either. Yes, you lose your rage when you switch stances, but you just have to learn when to switch and when not to and tactical mastery can help with the loss of rage. It's relatively cheap to get too.

[Pantalaimon]

In warrior-less groups (which are actually the norm on my server, at least Horde-side), I play dodge-n-parry tank with healer backup.  I also pull if there isn’t a hunter.  No problem keeping aggro of course.  We kill very quickly and I only die if we get too many adds.

In warrior groups, my experiences have been horrible.  I’m used to dealing massive DPS 1-on-1, and can fight up to 4 at once if necessary, using gouge, kidney shot, etc.  I can kill most mobs my level in 6-12 seconds depending on criticals and combo accrual.  But warriors become furious with me when I use these abilities, so I’m reduced to puller.
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First of all, later on in instances as has been alluded to by others, you can't play tank as a rogue. Rogues just can't stand up to the beatings that you'll receive later on, even with talents like deflection and reflexes (imho, drop those and get something else :P). But I don't want to tell you to "go stealth spec" like you said...

All in all, you just have to learn aggro management as a rogue. That's something rogues aren't really used to, but aggro management isn't only a cloth-wearer's thing. But if all you're doing is normal attacks on a mob and the warrior loses aggro, Tal is absolutely right, they're sucking not you.

Then again if you do a 5 point critical evisc you're going to get aggro, and there's not much a tank can do to stop that (or you for that matter). So, just hold off for a little after the evisc and let them grab the aggro back. If you have feint, use it. Otherwise just refrain from ss x5 evisc for like 5 seconds until the mob is glued back to the tank.

The biggest thing is to make sure you're attacking the same target as the tank, though. That way, while it's building hate on you it's still building hate on the tank.

And as a last thing, rogues make excellent healer bodyguards. If a mob peels off to go after a cloth-type, feel free to go up and clobber it. Having a leather wearer get beat on is better than a cloth, and like it or not, like a mage (maybe moreso) the rogue is disposable. Better you die than the priest, cuz you can get a quick rez and re-buff and the party's on its way.

[Guen]

Hi all,

Comming back to the lounge after spending most of my forum time on the WoW Priest Beta forum. Took a break from the game when it released, so I'm just getting back into it now. Let me just say that man, this forum is a breath of fresh air compaired to the Blizzard forums.

Few points to add regarding agro management and tanking.

Tanks: I've only played a War to 27, so my experience is limited and mainly from a Priest's PoV. War's are my best friends, I love teaming w/ them. I think the only advice I can offer to add to what's been said is these few minor things:

- Develope a pace that is comfortable to everyone in the party. Try to get used to the play styles of your group, especially if you are the one pulling. If you casters like to drink before the pull, wait a bit and don't rush them. This is of course a two way street. Most pulls are pretty simple, and casters shouldn't feel rushed to sit one out since the rest of the team could handle it w/o them. Just keep an eye on the rest of the team, don't pull if everyone isn't ready.

- Be sure to talk about strategies ahead of time. What is your game plan when the priest goes oom? Healing pot? Health stone? Stun/snare and bandage? With the way mana regen works, if a priest goes oom, it is best for them to sit and regen as long as possible, if they only regen enough to cast one heal, then go oom again, they have to wait another full 5 seconds, before they can even start to regen again. If you can buy them some time, everyone will be better off for it.

- Not sure what professions are most popular for tanks, but I'd consider engineering if I were a tanking class. Bombs give you an AoE stun, dmg and agro generator, to suppliment your other skills.

- Remember to wait for the Shield before the pull. This doesn't have to happen all the time, but w/ the bigger fights, the shield buffer helps alot. The longer you can go w/o that initial heal (even if it's just a renew) the better. I've been in so many fights where the tank gets mobbed on the pull, heath spikes down, I pop one heal on him and bang, everyone except the primary mob turns to the priest.

Rogues: I've not played the rogue class past lvl 15, and that was early on in the beta. Just thought I'd comment on the previous post from the rogue who finds it better off solo. Personally, I love playing w/ rogues. I've seen them played well just taking one of the mobs 1v1 as the rest of the party handles the others. This can work great most of the time. So long as the rogue doesn't need too much support (healing or shields) they can sap one mob, and 1v1 another, providing excellent CC for the group. Also, they basically serve as a second tank in that way, keeping an extra mob off the priest hate list. The only problems I've seen w/ this strat is when the rogue gets in over his head. If the priest has to spend too much mana/time healing both the rogue and the tank, things can get ugly. So long as the rogue knows when to go 1v1, and when to tone it down and just CC w/ sap and provide controlled dps, I love em. Also, I find that most rogues are very good w/ using first aid, which is a great support for me.

The other way I've seen rogues played is as a CC player w/ sap, and a primary assist w/ thier great dps. Basically the rogue monitors the battle, and assits any cloth wearer if they happen to draw agro. Works great IMO.

Final comment from a priest to a rogue, ask for/wait for the shield before the Sap. Gives you a buffer to soak up the dmg from the other mobs, while you run back to the group and lead the train to the tank.

Priests: Ok, post getting long now, just wanted to add some tips for fellow priests to suppliment what's been said in this thread an the other agro thread.

- For emphasis, when you draw agro, run to your tank or primary assits. Make it easy for them to help you.

- Make sure your group understands line of sight. You have to be able to see them to heal them. Don't split up or get too far ahead on stairs or in winding dungeons. Priests watch the player icons more than the actual players/mobs themselves, they will not know where to run to if your getting hit and are out of line of sight.

- Avoid healing yourself! This is a tough habbit to break, as you heal yourself all the time when your solo. If you getting hit while in a group, you've drawn agro (duh!) and healing yourself will only make it worse. What do you do then?

As stated above, run to your tank or assister, and don't attack the mob. Don't be afraid to soak up a little damage.

Down a healing pot or health stone. I don't believe using those items generates any agro, so drink away.

Plan ahead of time if you have a secondary healer. Ask them to watch your life bar, and trust in them to heal you when needed.

- Use of fade. There has been arguments and discusson about this for a while. I've been convinced that using fade before ever drawing agro is the best use of the skill. Typically, my strat is to usually let the tank soak up some damage early on. I pretty much just stand there and Pain or wand until the tank is near half health. Then I slap on a renew to buffer any damage spikes and then wait a bit more. Then hit fade and start the big heal. Flash and Shield are mainly for emergencies or non tank heals. The fade before the heal has worked best for me.

- Final tip is to educate yourself about other classes. Read up on thier skills and how they like to use them. Whenever you group, try to always remember to ask your tank what thier AC and Health are. Don't be rude about it and compare them or bash on them for not having the best build for thier lvl, just ask them so you can tailor your play to suit them. That way you will know what heal to use when, and not worry about under/over healing.

Heh, long post, guess I'm making up for my lack of posts for a while! Hope some of this info was useful to someone. Happy New Year and peace out.

- Guen

[Tal]

I never specified that a tank stay in defensive stance Artega - in fact I was pretty implicit that a tank change stance as needed as the situation warrants. Taunt can be resisted this is true as can thunderclap. Mocking blow can miss, piercing howl can also be resisted - all of which is just as likely when a mob is 3 levels higher or a boss. My personal preference is to be in defensive stance with a fast weapon for multiple mob pulls as it mitigates the damage I take, allows for excellent skills like shield wall and allows me access to my bread and butter skills like sunder armor, taunt, demoralizing shout, etc. Thats just my personal experience with playing a warrior. YMMV.

[LochnarITB]

Just thought I would share my assist macro.

/assist
/cast Arcane Missiles(Rank 5)

With this macro, I can click on the party member, their icon or use the f# key and then fire the macro. It selects the target that party member is focused on and casts arcane missiles. Of course, the "cast Arcane..." can be replaced with any form of attack such as other spells, shooting or pet attacks. I was having a hard time in sorting the bad guys out of a crowd and this fixed it. YMMV.

[Artega]

Bah, Shield Wall sucks. Retaliation is a better skill in every way, especially if you hit Sweeping Strikes before you activate it.

We recently had a really bad pull in Scarlet Monastery's Cathedral area, and had something around 10 mobs coming at us. I had some Rage left over from the previous battle, so I hit Challenging Shout and Retaliation, then Sweeping Strikes after the 30 rage came. Between our two rogues and me counterattacking everything, we felled all ten mobs relatively quickly. A rogue did get mashed because of the scarlet wizards spamming Arcane Explosion, but it was much preferred to a complete wipe :)

The downside is that I can only pull that stunt every thirty minutes :(