Post Reply 
Some ?'s re Traps & ....
12-27-2004, 07:24 PM
Post: #1
Some ?'s re Traps & ....
A few questions regarding traps in general and specifically the dreaded (by IM characters) Fire-arrow trap.

According to Jarulf’s Guide, the To Hit of traps is:
To Hit for an arrow trap: 100 - AC/2
To Hit for a magic trap: 40

And according to JG’s, “magic traps includes Fire Wall, Flame Wave and Ring of Fire attacks from other players. “ Now this cannot be an all-inclusive list in an of itself: the Firebolt trap and Nova trap are definitely magic traps and yet are not mentioned.

So, if we try to qualify the traps:

Arrow trap to hit: 100 - AC/2.

Firebolt to hit: obviously Magic trap so to hit so 40%.

Lightning trap: if you stand in the tile through which the lightning passes, you take appropriate damage. It is unblockable. Thus, 100% to hit? (doing 40% damage?)

Nova: again, if you stand in a tile adjacent to the chest from which the Nova originates, youWILL take damage, the question only being how much. Thus, 100% to hit? (doing 40% damage?)

Ring of Fire trap: again, you stand in the tile that has fire in it, you take damage, the only question being how much -- so, 100% to hit? (doing 40% damage?)

Barrel traps: treated like Firebolt, can be blocked, yet if you stand in a tile that is NOT going to be hit with barrel trap damage, you take none, yet if you stand in a tile that IS to take barrel trap damage, there is a 100% chance you’ll be hit with a chance you’ll block the damage?

So does the 40% to hit of certain Magic traps (Lightning, Nova, Ring of Fire) have more to do with HOW MUCH damage you will take rather than whether or not the trap actually hits you (since if you stand in the appropriate tile, you stand a 100% chance to be hit)? So JG’s should instead read you’ll take 40% of the total damage, or you’ll only take 40% of the damage over time while you stand in the fireghtning? You’ll ALWAYS take damage, it’s just a matter of the amount? So listing a “to hit” for these traps concerns the damage you take over time rather than whether or not the trap actually hits you? Otherwise, you should be able to stand in the path of a lightning trap or even inside a RoF trap and take NO damage in very very very rare cases if the “trap” is only “hitting” 40% of the time?

And what about PvP? JG’s states: “magic traps includes Fire Wall, Flame Wave and Ring of Fire attacks from other players. “ Shouldn’t this be testable? Go PvP and cast a Flame Wave at an opponent -- rather than take the damage listed in the caster’s spell book, the opponent should only take at maximum 40% of that damage (assuming 0% fire resists and no shield to block with)? It wouldn’t be that the Flame Wave would “hit” only 40% of the time, but that it would hit doing
40% of the damage? Or, does Flame Wave actually MISS 60% of the time in PvP?

So, what does this actual 40% to hit of Magic Traps mean?

*****

Ok, and now we get to the lovely Fire-arrow trap, bane of many an IM game. Is the Fire-arrow trap an “arrow trap” for to hit purposes, or a “magic trap”? This matters quite a bit, since if it has arrow trap to hit, one should try to max AC so that the trap won’t hit in the first place. If it is Magic trap to hit and has the autohit value of 40%, then AC be darned and go for the fire resistance or -dfe instead. Or, does the Arrow have to hit FIRST (thus arrow trap to hit considerations) and the Fire damage rendered afterwards “hit” 40% of the time (of doing only 40% of its damage)? Thus go all out AC to try to make the durn arrow miss in the first place?

And just how does the fire damage (assuming you’ve been hit by the arrow) actually take place? If it takes place much like fire and lightning arrows on bows, then according to JG’s: “as soon as the fire or lightning arrow hits and has done its non magical damage, the effect will switch into a fire or lightning damage attack, quite similar to the one spawned for melee attacks. This extra fire or lightning attack will, as opposed to with melee attacks, hit more than once and will try 7 times (9 if fire) before it ends.”

Do we assume that the physical arrow itself of the Fire arrow trap does 0 damage, and the damage comes from the fire? Being a fire arrow, the damage will try to strike you 9 times before it ends? If you have no fire resists, is this blockable? Some of it? None of it? All of it? Is it possible to block the _arrow_ yet still take the fire damage (thus, it would be better not to even use a shield?)?

And just how does this fire damage take place? If it happens “over time”, does the damage strike you sequentially (i.e., you get hit nine separate times over the course of “Speed/Duration 32”? Or is all the damage calculated to hit you in one massive strike)?

This would matter for your gear set up in preparation for opening a chest trapped with a fire arrow. The damage for the said trap is: “Min: dlvl + Rnd[10] + 1 ,Max: 2·dlvl + Rnd[10] + 1”. Now let’s just suppose the Rnd[10] in this specific case is 1 and the trap is found on dlevel 5 of Cats.

Min damage = 5 + 1 + 1 = 7, while Max damage = (2x5) +1 + 1 = 12

Average damage is 19/2 or 9.5 -- round it up or truncate it? For the sake of this investigation, let’s round up to 10.

Now remember this damage can hit you a maximum of nine times. Thus we’d have 9 x 10 = 90 points of damage. (And yes, the Rnd[10] would have to be 1 in all nine considerations for this to happen, which probably isn't very likely, but I'm not sure whether the game re-rolls this Rnd[10] each of the nine times or not.)

Now suppose you found and IDed a cap of Protection, giving -2 to damage, and you got Arkaine’s Valor from the level which is another -3 dfe for a total of -5 dfe.

If the damage takes place ALL AT ONCE, you’d take 90 - 5 = 85 damage.

Ah, but if the damage takes place sequentially, and if the -5dfe is assessed versus EACH separate fire damage hit, then you’d take 9 x (10-5dfe) = 9 x 5 = 45 damage!

What a difference!

Then suppose instead that you've found and IDed an armor that reduces fire damage by 20%. If the damage takes place all at once, you’ll take 90 - (90 x 20%) = 90 - 18 = 72 damage. If separate, 9 x (10 - [10 x 20%]) = 9 x (10 - 2) = 9 x 8 = 72 damage; same regardless of how the damage reduction is calculated.

The upshot? Depending upon how the damage is calculated -- in one fell swoop or in mini-steps -- your character’s setup can determine whether he lives or dies. If in one fell swoop, go for the fire resistances. If in mini-steps, try to max your -dfe.

And where does blocking enter into this? If you have no fire resists, can you “block” the fire damage even though the “arrow” has hit you? Would you still take the multiple damage (nine times) or can you block some of it? After all, you can block the fire damage of a Firebolt trap.

IMO I’ve noticed when struck by a particularly devastating Fire arrow trap that my health drops in increments, in steps. I’ve even been able to quickly drink a red potion while this damage is going on and survive it, though even AFTER I’ve drunk the red and it has taken effect (restored my full health) I’ve still taken further damage. I’ve also tested this in single player -- with full health step up and open the fire-arrow trapped chest and die to damage. Reload. Open the chest again, and this time drink while the damage is being doled out upon you. Live through the damage. So this would seem to support the “damage is done in steps” hypothesis.

Yet on the other hand -dfe doesn’t seem to do squat for certain traps, especially Nova traps, although this is merely anecdotal eveidence on my part.

So I guess the later portion of this post boils down to three major questions:

#1 how is the TO HIT of the Fire-arrow trap figured, both for the “arrow” and the “fire”,

#2 how is the DAMAGE of said trap figured (mini-steps or one massive strike), and

#3 what is the best setup to have in dealing with this trap?

Your thoughts?


Attika


Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-29-2004, 02:23 AM
Post: #2
Some ?'s re Traps & ....
#1: ...I unno?

#2:

>Is the Fire-arrow trap an “arrow trap” for to hit purposes, or a “magic trap”?

Arrow. Let's also safely assume that an arrow from a trap is treated like an arrow from a bow (enemy).

>Do we assume that the physical arrow itself of the Fire arrow trap does 0 damage, and the damage comes from the fire? Being a fire arrow, the damage will try to strike you 9 times before it ends?

The arrow has it's own component of normal damage. As far as I can figure from the guide, the range for the arrow damage and the fireghtning damage is the same.

>If it is Magic trap to hit and has the autohit value of 40%, then AC be darned and go for the fire resistance or -dfe instead. Or, does the Arrow have to hit FIRST (thus arrow trap to hit considerations) and the Fire damage rendered afterwards “hit” 40% of the time (of doing only 40% of its damage)? Thus go all out AC to try to make the durn arrow miss in the first place?

The to-hit for the arrow is 100-AC/2 as well as for the fire component (due to a bug): "The to hit calculations for the fire and lightning attack part, although magical, still use normal arrow to hit formulas." - 6.1.6. Thus AC will be useful for both the arrow itself and the attending fire damage, up to 180 AC (minimum to-hit for arrow = 10%).

>And just how does this fire damage take place? If it happens “over time”, does the damage strike you sequentially (i.e., you get hit nine separate times over the course of “Speed/Duration 32”? Or is all the damage calculated to hit you in one massive strike)?

Any attack that tries to hit more than once always means that it tries to hit one time per frame for a given number of frames. In this case it is for 10 frames (half a second), one frame for the arrow and 9 consecutive frames for the fire portion.


> If you have no fire resists, is this blockable? Some of it? None of it? All of it? Is it possible to block the _arrow_ yet still take the fire damage (thus, it would be better not to even use a shield?)?

I believe that everytime I have blocked the arrow I didn't take any fire damage, so I think the arrow needs to hit you to even check for fire damage. I also don't think that the fire is blockable at all with no resists. Even if it were though, don't count on blocking much damage, since the fire "attacks" every .05 seconds which is faster than you can block and you can't block while blocking. It would never be better to not use a shield though.

As for reducing the damage, I think it all depends on your your style or available gear. Each -1 DFE will save you 10 life max (~10% resists) compared to your figures. It gets more effective than resists as the damage from the trap decreases, but then again, if that is the case you'll live anyways. I would focus on resists since they are much more usefull, especially in iron man.

In Summary:

#3: Best combination of AC/Blocking to minimize chance to penetrate both; fire resistance; -DFE

--Lang

Diabolic Psyche - the site with Diablo on the Brain!
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-30-2004, 11:55 PM
Post: #3
Some ?'s re Traps & ....
Forgive me for perhaps having bad memory but I will try my best.

>And according to JG?s, ?magic traps includes Fire Wall, Flame Wave and Ring of
>Fire attacks from other players. ? Now this cannot be an all-inclusive list in an of
>itself: the Firebolt trap and Nova trap are definitely magic traps and yet are not
>mentioned.

Of course. What I mean here is that those three spells casted by players will attack as if they are magic traps, not as if they originate from a player. All traps listed in the trap section are magic traps except the pure arrow. This is in part explained better in the battle chapter perhaps. Although I can agree it might seem confusing.


>Lightning trap: if you stand in the tile through which the lightning passes, you
>take appropriate damage. It is unblockable. Thus, 100% to hit? (doing 40%
>damage?)

No, the bolts will attack you each frame and with a chance to hit of 40% each frame. Since the duration is 8 frames, you will have 8 attacks, each with a 40% chance to hit. I suppose that means once every 60 time or so, you should never be hit. I have never tested that though.



>Nova: again, if you stand in a tile adjacent to the chest from which the Nova
>originates, youWILL take damage, the question only being how much. Thus,
>100% to hit? (doing 40% damage?)

Each nova bolt will try to hit you once, but since there are many bolts in a nova spell, and since there are only 8 tiles arround the chest, you will have multiple bolts trying to hit you (as oposed to a lightning which is actually a stationary bolt trying to hit you several times.


>Ring of Fire trap: again, you stand in the tile that has fire in it, you take damage,
>the only question being how much -- so, 100% to hit? (doing 40% damage?)

Same as lighting, stationary flames each attacking every frame. You might be hit by more than 1 flame though since they overlap.


>Barrel traps: treated like Firebolt, can be blocked, yet if you stand in a tile that is
>NOT going to be hit with barrel trap damage, you take none, yet if you stand in a
>tile that IS to take barrel trap damage, there is a 100% chance you?ll be hit with a
>chance you?ll block the damage?

It is treated as if a firebolt is set of into your location, think of it as a stationary firebolt fired into your location, it will try to hit once and then it is removed.


>And what about PvP? JG?s states: ?magic traps includes Fire Wall, Flame Wave
>and Ring of Fire attacks from other players. ? Shouldn?t this be testable? Go PvP
>and cast a Flame Wave at an opponent -- rather than take the damage listed in
>the caster?s spell book, the opponent should only take at maximum 40% of that
>damage (assuming 0% fire resists and no shield to block with)?

No, the damage is based on the player casting it (see guide for values), the tohit is as if it was a trap though (basically 40%).


> It wouldn?t be
>that the Flame Wave would ?hit? only 40% of the time, but that it would hit doing
>40% of the damage? Or, does Flame Wave actually MISS 60% of the time in
>PvP?

Yes, but then typically you are hit by 2 or 3 different flames, each frame!


>So, what does this actual 40% to hit of Magic Traps mean?

That each time they try to hit you, there is a 40% chance they actually do :)


>Ok, and now we get to the lovely Fire-arrow trap, bane of many an IM game. Is
>the Fire-arrow trap an ?arrow trap? for to hit purposes, or a ?magic trap??

If I rrecall correctly, it is an arrow that then sets of a fire effect "spell". I have a whole subchapter on this if I recall correctly.

> This
>matters quite a bit, since if it has arrow trap to hit, one should try to max AC so
>that the trap won?t hit in the first place. If it is Magic trap to hit and has the
>autohit value of 40%, then AC be darned and go for the fire resistance or -dfe
>instead. Or, does the Arrow have to hit FIRST (thus arrow trap to hit
>considerations) and the Fire damage rendered afterwards ?hit? 40% of the time
>(of doing only 40% of its damage)? Thus go all out AC to try to make the durn
>arrow miss in the first place?

I would say that yes, high AC helps, but this is from pure memory, I don't recall it well.


>And just how does the fire damage (assuming you?ve been hit by the arrow)
>actually take place? If it takes place much like fire and lightning arrows on bows,
>then according to JG?s: ?as soon as the fire or lightning arrow hits and has done
>its non magical damage, the effect will switch into a fire or lightning damage
>attack, quite similar to the one spawned for melee attacks. This extra fire or
>lightning attack will, as opposed to with melee attacks, hit more than once and
>will try 7 times (9 if fire) before it ends.?

Yes, the fire arrow is the exact same as from a bow.


>Do we assume that the physical arrow itself of the Fire arrow trap does 0
>damage, and the damage comes from the fire? Being a fire arrow, the damage
>will try to strike you 9 times before it ends? If you have no fire resists, is this
>blockable? Some of it? None of it? All of it? Is it possible to block the _arrow_
>yet still take the fire damage (thus, it would be better not to even use a shield?)?

I don't remember how it is, there is both damage on the arrow and on the resulting fire attack, just as for a fire arrow from a player if I recall correctly.


>And just how does this fire damage take place? If it happens ?over time?, does
>the damage strike you sequentially (i.e., you get hit nine separate times over the
>course of ?Speed/Duration 32?? Or is all the damage calculated to hit you in one
>massive strike)?

Check the chapter dealing with the firearrow (loghting arrow), it explains in detail, it is the exact same for a trap fire arrow.


>And where does blocking enter into this? If you have no fire resists, can you
>?block? the fire damage even though the ?arrow? has hit you? Would you still
>take the multiple damage (nine times) or can you block some of it? After all, you
>can block the fire damage of a Firebolt trap.

I don't remember well. I guess I could always go and read the guide but that seems to not help to make it clear?


Did the above help?

There are three types of people in the world. Those who can count and those who can't.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump: