Cheating ethics

[whathuh]

This thread has already gone past its "sell by" date.  Sorry to expose the science project in the fridge on this one, but I could not resist.  Caffeine high just hit.

1.  Cheating is cheating.  If you do it, GTFO of the Lounge, period.  That means, re-read Griselda's post, and this time, pay attention.  She says it nice, I say it mean.

2.  If ya gets old, and ya makes excuses, yer a whiner.  Have your Dad email me if you find that offensive, I am 45, father of 2, husband of one, and may be able to have an adult discussion with him on why rule number one in my house is "No Whining."

3.  Fun is where you find it.  Cheat or not, just don't ask Legits to approve of your decisions in that regard when you have self doubt . . . which probably comes from the deep seated understanding of right and wrong that your Dad taught to you a few years before you taught yourself to  . . . edited, no need to go there.

Show your manhood some respect, eh?  :blink:

Occhi
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I never asked for the legitimacy (personally, I think its fine, as explained in various other posts) of my dad's cheating habit, I only used it as the source of where I found the Ilvl finder in response to MEAT's post. If you will reread all my posts after Griselda's, you might notice that my questions were answered, and I indirectly stated so.

[whathuh]

Don't tell me he cheats in Starcraft against other people too! I'd have to bonk you guys with a frying pan or something. :)
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He plays Single Player. I think he got turned off Multi when some idiot pked him in Diablo. I dont think sc has any good hacks anyway. Sc isnt fun with maphack unless you are bored to death, and even then you can use glitches which are perfectly legal (There isn't a part in the TOU that says you can't exploit bugs is there?).

Trust me. D2 does not require fast reflexes. All you need to do is learn what items and skills you need and adapt accordingly to the monsters.  There's some reflexes, but unless you're playing hardcore it's not that big of a deal. Are you sure you just aren't going to fast. Why not just go back to easier levels and do some magic finding. You can find yourself some decent things in late nightmare before you try hell again.

It requires in hell faster reflexes than my dad has. While the game is beatable the way he plays(even without maphack), its no fun for him, which takes the motivation out of playing. It's kind of like reading a really bad book. You always read afew chapters in to see if it gets better. If it doesn't, you quit. Thats the way he plays.

Also, I noted somewhere in here that he is incapable of magic finding. I have no idea why. His idea of mfing is putting on as much mf stuff as he can and continue on in his quest. I even tell him to use teleport, kill meph, kill andy, kill pindle, kill shenk, kill eldritch, etc...

[Jarulf]

Okay fair enough, however if you used a 3rd party program to show you the calculated damage, cap on absorption, diminishing returns on Magic Find, monster levels or area levels then you'd be cheating.  There's no two-ways around that fact!  That was my point and I think that if you had read my post in context (directed at Whathuh), then you would of understood this.  Even in the portion you quoted it states "ON BATTLE.NET... IN GAME".  Sure you can see find the monster levels by checking the Arret Summit and then you'll know the item level by doing that, but for some reason or another (let me reiterate), Blizzard DOES NOT want you to know the Item Levels in game!!!  So is my point clear enough now?
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So, if someone else uses such a program to get the values and then tell you or post them somewere it is suddenly not cheating? I don't see the difference, all those things I mentioned and many more are used on bnet as well. Exactly HOW you get the information is quite irrelevant in my opinion.

The main reason you can't see the level values are not in my opnion that they don't want it, it is because it is an abstract value and Blizzard tend to only show name and direct effects of things in game. The same why you don't see the level of a monster in game. The reason you can list monster levels at a site is because they don't change, the level you talk about for an item is individual for each specific item so you can't make lists for it. There is no big meeting with decisions and official policy setting on how it is meant to be at Blizzzard deciding that that level is a secret and players should not now it, while the monster level is not a secret but we will only tell on our website.

So no, there is no point in my opinion or it is not a good one, hence my initial reply.

[Archon_Wing]

He plays Single Player.  I think he got turned off Multi when some idiot pked him in Diablo.  I dont think sc has any good hacks anyway.  Sc isnt fun with maphack unless you are bored to death, and even then you can use glitches which are perfectly legal (There isn't a part in the TOU that says you can't exploit bugs is there?).

Maybe not explictly prohibited, but there are certain bugs in the game that would break the game, and IMO it is incredibly lame to use them if you are playing multiplayer. But once again, I would make a deal over it if it was against other people.

BTW, you can send a worker to a computer players base in the beginning, and attack its main building. All its workers will go after your worker and you can lure them in a wild goose chase indefinitely. I don't even know if that's a bug, but certainly something the game creators didn't intend for :P

There are various bugs that seemed to be accepted in the Starcraft community and some aren't. But once again, it boils down to who you're playing with I suppose. One could use the rules for tournaments and such but there's still nothing definite. Bugs that crash the game or break gameplay are probaly not wanted though for obvious reasons.


It's nice in Starcraft that the hacks are relatively minor and the people who use them are usually very bad players.

It requires in hell faster reflexes than my dad has. While the game is beatable the way he plays(even without maphack), its no fun for him, which takes the motivation out of playing. It's kind of like reading a really bad book. You always read afew chapters in to see if it gets better. If it doesn't, you quit. Thats the way he plays.

A poorly prepared or equipped character will fail regardless of reflexes. It's not the reflexes that are holding him back. Much better to actualy buff up the character rather than rely on crutches.

Also, I noted somewhere in here that he is incapable of magic finding. I have no idea why. His idea of mfing is putting on as much mf stuff as he can and continue on in his quest. I even tell him to use teleport, kill meph, kill andy, kill pindle, kill shenk, kill eldritch, etc...

No pain, no gain.

But really: Cheating offline, you only cheat yourself. Cheating online, you cheat the other people you play against. That's pretty much it.

[Zingydex]

(There isn't a part in the TOU that says you can't exploit bugs is there?).

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Actually, there is a clause against exploiting the game code in any way - this includes bugs.

[whathuh]

Actually, there is a clause against exploiting the game code in any way - this includes bugs.
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Damn. That ruins my dropship bug that blizz still hasn't fixed.

[Archon_Wing]

I don't think right and wrong should be defined in whether you get caught or not. And if you use the dropship bug to crash the game in a game with people, that's kind of terrible. :/ If you want to crash your own game, so be it, but don't bring that crap online.

And yes, to all others reading this, the dropship bug crashes the game for everyone that was playing it.

[Tal]

I never asked for the legitimacy (personally, I think its fine, as explained in various other posts) of my dad's cheating habit, I only used it as the source of where I found the Ilvl finder in response to MEAT's post.  If you will reread all my posts after Griselda's, you might notice that my questions were answered, and I indirectly stated so.
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By posting his reasons (and yours) for using Maphack you have invited comment upon the legitimacy of the useage. In fact this entire thread is about whether it is ethical for you to use a third party program in conjunction with Diablo 2.

Now weighing in with my opinion. If your Dad can't compete in hell than its time to go back to Normal and Nightmare. Hell difficulty is meant to be hell in both single player and multi-player. This is by design to be the most challenging part of the game. By relying upon a cheat your father is lessening that challenge and might as well be playing Nightmare. Besides its not like there are story arcs in Hell difficulty that do not exist in Normal or Nightmare.

As far as your use of Maphack to determine the item level of an item to me it feels like you're wanting to take the easy way out instead of figuring the item's level out yourself based on the area level. But I'm staunchly anti-maphack. :)

[Jarulf]

As far as your use of Maphack to determine the item level of an item to me it feels like you're wanting to take the easy way out instead of figuring the item's level out yourself based on the area level. But I'm staunchly anti-maphack. :)
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And how would he figure out the area level? Do note that the game doesn't give that information either.

[Tal]

And how would he figure out the area level? Do note that the game doesn't give that information either.
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I've seen site's on the 'net that list the Area level for the different places in the game. I imagine that they get it from viewing the MPQs.

[Occhidiangela]

. . . By relying upon a cheat your father is lessening that challenge and might as well be playing Nightmare for all intensive purposes.
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For what it's worth, "for all intents and purposes" is the expression that seems to be butchered quite a bit these days. :rolleyes: Yes, the phrase itself is redundant.

As to item levels, there is I think some info on that at the Arreat Summit, but most of it was derived by players who did indeed look into the tables, similar to what Jarulf compiled in his Diablo I guide.

While this could raise "is it legit to look at the game code, to find out how the game works" questions, that level of discussion really goes nowhere.

Was also glad to see any number of folks use "fun is where you find it." I guess if one repeats a saying long enough, it will occasionally infect someone else's prose! hehehe

Now, about that Lying Character Screen . . . when the game, due to sloppy game coding, gives you incorrect information, is the game cheating against you???????

Occhi

[Tal]

For what it's worth, "for all intents and purposes" is the expression that seems to be butchered quite a bit these days.  :rolleyes:  Yes, the phrase itself is redundant.

Occhi
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*blushes* Ooops - can't believe I got that one wrong. *edits post*

Thanks Occhi

[vmxa]

Well as long as we are correcting of used phrases and quotes:

I thought the Shakespeare quote was dogs of war, not men? :D

[whathuh]

I've seen site's on the 'net that list the Area level for the different places in the game. I imagine that they get it from viewing the MPQs.
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which Jarulf is saying that that is cheating in a way too.

And I suppose I did invite the criticism to the use of single player mh, but playing the same level over and over again gets boring, hell makes them much different and much harder, thus making them more fun, but at times past the point of being fun and instead becoming tedious.

[whathuh]

For what it's worth, "for all intents and purposes" is the expression that seems to be butchered quite a bit these days.  :rolleyes:  Yes, the phrase itself is redundant.

As to item levels, there is I think some info on that at the Arreat Summit, but most of  it was derived by players who did indeed look into the tables, similar to what Jarulf compiled in his Diablo I guide.

While this could raise "is it legit to look at the game code, to find out how the game works" questions, that level of discussion really goes nowhere.

Was also glad to see any number of folks use "fun is where you find it."  I guess if one repeats a saying long enough, it will occasionally infect someone else's prose!  hehehe

Now, about that Lying Character Screen . . . when the game, due to sloppy game coding, gives you incorrect information, is the game cheating against you???????

Occhi
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I can't agree more, especially with the fact that game code discussions really don't go anywhere.

[Taem]

So, if someone else uses such a program to get the values and then tell you or post them somewere it is suddenly not cheating? I don't see the difference, all those things I mentioned and many more are used on bnet as well. Exactly HOW you get the information is quite irrelevant in my opinion.

The main reason you can't see the level values are not in my opnion that they don't want it, it is because it is an abstract value and Blizzard tend to only show name and direct effects of things in game. The same why you don't see the level of a monster in game. The reason you can list monster levels at a site is because they don't change, the level you talk about for an item is individual for each specific item so you can't make lists for it. There is no big meeting with decisions and official policy setting on how it is meant to be at Blizzzard deciding that that level is a secret and players should not now it, while the monster level is not a secret but we will only tell on our website.

So no, there is no point in my opinion or it is not a good one, hence my initial reply.
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I responded to you last night but during my post, I lost connection to the LL. I haven’t bothered to read what everyone else said after your post because of this so if someone already said what I'm saying, I apologize:

Okay, I understand your point of view better now. Thank you for clarifying. I do agree with everything you are saying in regards to my point being "weak". Point taken ;) .

My only concern from here on out is that people that come to these boards will look on this thread and utilize it's context as a basis for talking about "cheating". I mean, your talking about using such things as .mpq readers, packet readers, and programs to understand better the functions of Diablo, in and off the net. People will see that as, "well great, I use a packet-sniffer all the time", and from there talks *could* progress into how the game functions... and just as easily degenerate into what items are actually displayed on the gamble screen, how to bypass the WP/Hostile timer, and other 'fine-line' topics that boarder on cheating.

[Tal]

which Jarulf is saying that that is cheating in a way too.

And I suppose I did invite the criticism to the use of single player mh, but playing the same level over and over again gets boring, hell makes them much different and much harder, thus making them more fun, but at times past the point of being fun and instead becoming tedious.
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Reread my post. Where did I say that you were cheating? I said that you were taking the easy way out by using Maphack. I quickly got tired of trying to figure out Item levels by guesses of Area level off monster level and went back to playing the game. If you want to Min/Max thats your business. Though I do have to admit that I don't necessarily believe your "I use maphack for the iLvl feature" story either but since I don't know you I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Your Dad, however, is cheating IMHO in case I didn't make it clear in my post.

[Jarulf]

My only concern from here on out is that people that come to these boards will look on this thread and utilize it's context as a basis for talking about "cheating".  I mean, your talking about using such things as .mpq readers, packet readers, and programs to understand better the functions of Diablo, in and off the net.  People will see that as, "well great, I use a packet-sniffer all the time", and from there talks *could* progress into how the game functions... and just as easily degenerate into what items are actually displayed on the gamble screen, how to bypass the WP/Hostile timer, and other 'fine-line' topics that boarder on cheating.

OK, that is something I can understand. Still, I would say the sites policy of non cheating is really the help I would say. My personal view is that as soon as you play with others, do it by the book (is that the correct expression) and when you play on your own, do whatever you feel like.

[Jarulf]

I've seen site's on the 'net that list the Area level for the different places in the game. I imagine that they get it from viewing the MPQs.

Not sure if this is a serious reply or not. My question was not really were to find the information, but meant as a question on how that would be different from finding the values yourself (through whatever program/means). The game doesn't show either information, yet one is a good way and one is not?

[adeyke]

Not sure if this is a serious reply or not. My question was not really were to find the information, but meant as a question on how that would be different from finding the values yourself (through whatever program/means). The game doesn't show either information, yet one is a good way and one is not?
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Personally, I'd draw a distinction between, for lack of better terms, general knowledge and specific knowledge.

The general knowledge is the kind you could find in the MPQs or the code, or that you could test. It's knowledge about the way the game works. It's the sort of thing you could you can discover and then post about. The area levels are an example of this. You can look it up in the MPQs, you can run tests in a modded environment, or you can look it up in a table that someone has already made of the data.

The specific knowledge is the opposite. It applies only to a specific instance of an item/character/monster/etc. No matter how much of the general knowledge you have, you can't use it to find the specific knowledge. An example of this is the ilvl of, say, a gambled item. It's random with a range, and while you might sometimes be able to find it from the affixes, it's usually simply unknown. No amount of MPQ research could help. No amount of testing could help, unless it involves that specific item. And if you did post about it ("The item I gambled is ilvl 55."), it wouldn't actually be useful for anyone, since that knowledge applies only to that specific item.

Some further examples:

- You could look into how the game generates maps and perhaps find patterns that'd help you find the stairs quicker. Since there is a random element involved, this isn't fool-proof, but you might be able to make some more educated guesses. That's general knowledge, so it's fine. However, if you had a program that displayed the actual specific map you're in, then that'd be cheating.

- Suppose you're looking at a gamble screen and want to decide which item to pick. Now, it's possible to use general knowledge to find the probabilities of what each displayed item could be. You might then make an educated decision on which you want to gamble (e.g. "At my clvl, gambled amulets have a higher chance of being useful than gambled breast plates, so I'll pick the amulets). That's general knowledge, so it's fine. However, if you had a program that displayed what each of those specific items actually is (not possible now, I know), then that'd be cheating.

- The same thing with monster drops. It's possible to use general knowledge to find the drop chances of every item from every monster. You could then choose to MF in an area where the item you want is likely to drop. However, if you had a program that displayed which specific monster in the game you'd have to kill to get the item (not possible, since the drops aren't generated until monster death), then that'd be cheating.

- You can find out how different items look on different characters. You could also learn to identify some items by their effects (e.g. sanctuary on a non-Paladin must come from azurewrath). Then, when you duel someone, you could make an educated guess about at least some of the items they're wearing. It's general knowledge, so it's fine. However, if you had a program that displayed what actual specific items your actual specific opponent is wearing, that'd be cheating.

The list goes on.

So it isn't necessarily contradictory to pursue D2 knowledge while being adamantly opposed to a program that provides knowledge. MH shows plenty of specific knowledge that the player should have no way of having. Now, if MH was modified to display only general knowledge (and thus have a lot of uncertainty about some things), it might be a bit more defensible. I still wouldn't condone its use, though.