New Hosting Needed!

[Bolty]

Yesterday I got a call from Globat, the web-hosting company used here at the Lounge, for which I have a dedicated server. They "are unable to make money" with their current pricing plan, $99/month, and will be raising the rent, so to say, to $159/month starting in October. "No thanks," I replied, since such a jump is a little ridiculous in my opinion.

Since this thingy you're using here ain't free (in case you weren't aware), that's too steep for costs. It's time to move! To where shall we go?

This is where I'd like some input. It's really hard to evaluate hosting plans on the net. While there are many sites out there that "review" or "rate" web hosting plans, many of them are "fake" in the sense that ad money = good reviews, or their "testimonials" are actually written by shills. What we need here is a dedicated server with:

• 500 MB storage space (more is always good, but unnecessary)
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• Email accounts (don't need many, but most everyone offers unlimited)
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• 100 GB/month transfer (more might be needed if this site gets heavily into a new game. Right now it's around 25 GB/month - during LoD Beta, we were clearing that much and more per week)
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• FTP access (standard)
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• MySQL databases (for forum and future site management system)
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• PHP
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• SSI<>
  [st]
  That's about it. If any of you know of good dedicated server companies, let me know. Something under $100/month is greatly desired. It doesn't need to be the most kick-butt computer out there - in fact, it can be pretty skanky. Right now we're running on a skanky system, for example, and things run pretty well here. Stats:
  
  AMD 1GHz Processor
  512 MB RAM
  60 GB DISK SPACE
  450 GB Monthly Transfer
  $99/month (going to $159/month)
  
  So it doesn't need to be great. But it needs to be dedicated, because the moment we get Slashdotted or linked to by Blizzard and we're on some kind of "shared" plan, the plug gets pulled on the site. Those of you who were around last time when the site disappeared for 3 weeks know that all too well.
  
  -Bolty

[Crystalion]

It's time to move!&nbsp; To where shall we go?

I know the owner of HE.net (circa 41st largest web hosting company) so I forwarded a link to this post to a friend who runs the he.net R&D department for him to forward to whoever in the company might be appropriate to email you, Bolty. (In other words, you may get an email out of the blue--heads up)

Naturally, since the owner is an acquaintance, my hosting for fairgame.com has always been with him (with no problems that we couldn't work out).

Good luck finding your new home.

[kandrathe]

I dunno -- I've used Visi.com for over 5 years without a hiccup. I have a dedicated T1 and they call me within 10-15 minutes of a line down, usually to inform me that they have the phone company working on the problem. They seem to have plenty of spare bandwidth.

They have a gold UNIX plan that seems to come close to what you are looking for:

Gold UNIX Virtual Web Site Specifications and Pricing

• Climate-controlled, Physically Secure Locations
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• Hosted on High-capacity Sun Sparc Ultra servers
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• 300 Mbps OC12 Backbone Connection to UUNet/MCI, 155 Mbps OC3 Backbone Connection to AT&T
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• Full BGP Routing
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• 24x7 Network Monitoring
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• Daily Backups
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• Primary Domain Name Service (DNS)
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• Static IP for each Virtual Web Site
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• 100 MB Web Space
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• 512 Kbps Maximum Transfer Speed/Bandwidth
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• 24x7 access via FTP, telnet, SSH
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• CGI, Perl, PHP, and SSI support
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• Server Log Files available
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• Graphical Web Statistics available
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• Shared SSL (Secure Web Service) included
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• 5 POP Mailboxes<>
  [st]
  for $35.95/month plus $25 setup. I didn't see any total bandwidth/month stats on that, but it looks like they just throttle you to 512Kbps. They are a very technically sound group, and like I said, reliable.

[Griselda]

Sounds like shared hosting, and a fairly low disc allocation. Also, there's this line in the ToS: "VISI reserves the right to refuse services based on content or resource utilization." That's kind of scary in a shared hosting situation. :(

[Tal]

Well so far I've only come across one host that fits the bill. For $49.99 a month you get:

Setup Fee - $49.00
Hard Drive - 40 GB
Data Transfer - 1000 GB **
Processor - 2.4 GHz Celeron
Memory - 256 MB RAM
Multiple Domains - Unlimited
FREE Domain Registration - 1
Reboots - Unlimited
Operating System -
Windows 2003
Red Hat Linux 9.0
Red Hat Linux Fedora
FreeBSD 4.10

Unfortunately that server is pretty anemic.

[Bolty]

"VISI reserves the right to refuse services based on content or resource utilization."

Right, it's the resource utilization clauses that always nail this site in a shared environment. If the forum gets loaded down, this site consumes a huge amount of CPU power on the server and the hosts can it.

Tal, the 256 megs RAM is the only thing on that server that concerns me.

-Bolty

[Tal]

Tal, the 256 megs RAM is the only thing on that server that concerns me.

-Bolty

Yar - 256 is really not sufficient in my opinion to be a dedicated server. The celery processor is also a concern but it should have the horses to do the job.

[Occhidiangela]

Is that something internal to your site, via choices you make during design, or a provision you agree on with the hosting service as a prioritization system?

For example, one easy flag to attach to request is the "yes" "no" to the Member data point. If there is a high demand on getting into your site, can't you, to prevent a Slashdotting sort of thing, have in place a priority rule that puts members in the que and "clips" non members in high traffic times? That would, I suspect, keep the pipe clogging concerns down to a dull roar.

A certain hit rate or flow density causes a "clipping" feature to kick in and "AK404's" "site not found" start going back to, starting bottom priority to top, those trying to access the site.

Or am I being rubish in asking a complete NOOB question about site management?

Occhi

[Selby]

Occhi, while that sounds plausible, I'd expect anyone who wasn't logged in at the time to be hosed. Not to mention it would suck a big amount of resources just figuring out who was a logged in member and who wasn't, which may or may not actually help the situation. And then Bolty still needs to find a new host anyways since an extra $750 a year is kind of a steep increase.

[Occhidiangela]

I was looking two steps forward, not one back, or so I thought.

I wrote that question based on the assumption that Bolty was moving and one of his concerns was the "clip the site" problem that The Lounge ran into before due to surges in demand. With the cheaper set ups being bandied about, and Bolty's comment, I figured that it would take a series of controls to ensure that the economy move still allowed for both protection and a reasonable level of activity. I are just not site clever enough to know.

I was able to do the extra cost figure in my head, but thanks for re-affirming my understanding of the order of magnitude. :rolleyes:

Hmmm, I wonder if I can clip some coupons to help . . .

Occhi

[DeeBye]

I have a free three year trial hosting dealie with 1and1.com (500MB space, 5 GB/month transfer). Now I mainly use it to host files and such, but I've heard a lot of good things about them. I can say that their tech support is fantastic, and the uptime is good.

Here's a managed dedicated server package that seems to fit your bill:

Hardware:

* Intel Pentium 4 2.4 GHz or higher
* 512 MB DDR RAM
* 40 GB IDE hard drive
* Free instant repair & replacement
* Initial configuration & installation
* Free security update & system maintenance

Managed Server Features:
Network Features:

* 500 GB monthly transfer volume
* Additional bandwidth $0.99/GB

Basic Features:

* Server managed by 1&1
* Server Side Includes (SSI)
* 50 FTP accounts

Domain Features:

* 200 Subdomains
* No additional costs for domain transfers
* Point unlimited external domains to 1&1 name servers
* DNS Management
* Domain Contact Management

E-mail Features:

* 1,000 POP3 e-mail accounts with 50 MB space each
* 20,000 e-mail aliases
* 1&1 WebMail
* E-mail forwarding
* Auto-responders
* Catch-all e-mail addresses
* Symantec Virus Scanner for 10 POP3 accounts

Marketing Tools:

* 25 1&1 Chat Channels
* In2site Live Dialogue
* 1&1 WebStatistics
* 1&1 Newsletter Tool
* Search Engine Tools

Site-Building Tools:

* Create a 25-page site using WebsiteCreator
* Software worth $550, including NetObjects Fusion 7.5
* 1&1 WebElements
* FrontPage 2002 Extensions
* Cron Jobs via Shell
* Advanced Developer Tools
* PHP3 & PHP4
* Ready-to-run CGI scripts
* Free CGI programming

Database Features:

* 1&1 WebDatabase
* 100x MySQL databases (local)

Security Features:

* SSH Secure Shell Access
* Dedicated SSL Certificate (QuickSSL Premium)
* SSL Secure Server
* Continuously updated 1&1 firewall
* Daily backup
* Free security updates & system maintenance

Account Features:

* 1&1 Control Panel
* Access to log files

Support:

* 90-Day Money Back Guarantee
* 99.9% uptime guarantee

Support:

* Free 24/7 phone & e-mail support
* Online FAQ

$79/month

[AnotherBlackHat]

Disclaimer: I work for he.net

Hurricane Electric offers a shared account;
Enhanced: $24.95/mo 5GB storage 100GB traffic
It's a LAMP system (i.e. it runs linux, apache, mysql, and perl) there's PHP and FTP (though I recommend SCP as a better alternative).
Not sure about server side includes - they have them but it may not be the kind you were expecting.

H.E. wouldn't pull the plug if you got slashdotted, but they would bill you for the overage,
which might be even worse depending on your situation. (Of course, if you put the $75 you save
each month into a fund to pay for the overages when they happen, you would probably still come
out way ahead.)


Then there's dedicated servers, and colocation.
Colocation is where you send the hosting company a server, and they connect it to power and the internet.
Dedicated servers are essentially the same, except instead of buying the server, you rent it.
Hurricane Electric offers this, but frankly I think it's not in your price range.
There are many companies out there selling dedicated servers/colocation for under $100 a month.
A google search on "dedicated server" or "colocation" will turn up hundreds.
Beware - there's a lot of truth to the old saw "you get what you pay for".
There are also often hidden costs - signup fees, long term commit, and overage fees are typical gotchas, but there may be others.


Frankly, if you got the savvy to run your own server, I'd recommend getting corporate DSL and putting a server in your garage.
You won't get the 5 nines (99.999% uptime) of a "real" hosting company, but you can control your costs much better and if the site is down for a few hours occasionally, I don't think it would be an unrecoverable shock to your users.
Plus you get a nice fat pipe to the internet for your own use.


-- less is better.

[Bob]

Have you considered just getting a hefty intarweb pipe to your abode (as much as you can get for $100/month) and a really basic computer - for hosting a website all you need is a processor/m.board/HD/RAM/case, and they don't need to be top notch, graphics, network sound can all be onboard. You can then do whatever you want with it.
You could go with a cheaper connection (say $75/month) and put the extra $25/month that you would be spending down towards the comp, $25 x 12 months = $300.

Quick bit of pricing from overclockers.co.uk:
Athlon XP 2500+ (Barton), retail box set (with 'sink & fan): £55.00
Asus socket A motherboard, no onboard graphics: £29.95
Seagate Barracuda HD, 40Gb, 7,200 RPM £31.00
GeForce MX4000 64Mb graphics £23.50
512Mb Crucial DDR memory £47.50
Asus CD drive £ 8.75
Aopen case £39.95
Floppy drive £ 6.50
Sundries (thermal paste, cables, etc.) £15.00

Grand total £ 257.15
plus VAT at 17.5% (I'm not sure if you'll have to pay this, but I'll add it on)
Total + VAT £302.15
Convert to US dollars: $543.37

So. If you save $25 on what you'd usually pay for hosting, you'd make up the cost of the computer in 22 months. If you consider that you can get some of those things cheaper too (my case cost me £19.99 at a local shop, for instance), it could be less. Oh, and you'll be buying in the US, so just about everything will be cheaper again.
Granted, you'd have to pay for electricity, and have to worry about the technicalities (and worry about power outages, but you can get a UPS for ~£70), security, etc.
Once the computer is "paid for" with savings from hosting cost, the computer will be using 3-4 units of leccy per day. Staying at 4, for a 30.5 day month is 122 units, I don't know how much a unit of electricity is, but 122 units will be less than $25.

Ok. Bandwidth. 100Gb/month. That's 100x1024x1024x1024x8 = 858,993,459,200 bits
----------------------
60 x 60 x 24 x 30.5 = 2,635,200 second

Which is 325,964 bits/S
Which is 326 Kbit/S pipe. Which is puny. (that's the upload capacity [roughly] of my ISP's domestic 1.5Mb down connection at £37/month)
A dedicated 512Kb/S each way connection would see you through fine, assuming constant & even traffic. 1Mb/s should get you through peak activity. Just make sure that you get a commercial line which allows you to host servers. And get a static IP.
Hmm, although those might be more expensive. I have spent almost an hour trying to find some prices, but not a single website wants to tell me prices without me giving them a phone number to 'check availabilty'...
However, 1.5Mb/384Kb seems to be going at around $69.95, although that is ADSL rather than a 'proper' connection, like cable. (I have cable, so I like to think that it's the only proper connection. Humour me).
Now, remember that my 326Kb/Sec was based on 100Gb transfer/month. Like you said, it's rare for us to get anywhere near that, and it's closer to 25Gb/month. That's about 83Kb/Sec. 384Kb/sec should cover peaks in that nicely. And overall the connection can still pump the 100Gb/month that you want, it'll just be slower during peaks with that demand.

Ok, so it'll be hard, not much cheaper & a good reason to tear your hair out.
But don't dismiss the idea out of hand, afterall, you started the lounge for a learning experience with HTML.

-Bob

edit: a) the formatting on my maths is messed up, I didn't type it that way
B) I spot that someone else has posted my idea before me. I started writing this post at 3:30 PM, went to watch TV for a few hours & finished it at 7:20. That's why the idea has been 'reposted' an hour later.

[channel1]

We moved Toontown Central over to Rackshack (now EV1 Servers) about a year ago. We've been pretty happy with them. The cost of a dedicated server there may be more than you care for (US$99/month, setup $1), but they are pretty generous with bandwidth and storage. An example of the hardware on a US$99/month setup:
Intel Celeron 1.3 GHz
512 RAM - 60 GB Hard Drive
1000 GB Monthly Transfer

We are set up with a bit more than that, but we are also selling space from the server to help pay for it.

They are pretty good to deal with, and we have no cause for regrets.

-rcv-

[Bolty]

Dee, this is insane. No company can make a profit with this plan. $79/mo for all that?

Now I see that it's a shared server. I'm leery. They're not very specific about what constitutes "acceptable use" of their servers. Maybe I'll give them a call.

-Bolty

[Bolty]

If there is a high demand on getting into your site, can't you, to prevent a Slashdotting sort of thing, have in place a priority rule that puts members in the que and "clips" non members in high traffic times?

Actually, Globat did have this when we were on a shared system. Perhaps you recall the occasional "process limit exceeded" messages that would appear when accessing the forums sometimes last year. Even with this throttling, getting Slashdotted wiped them out.

The Globat rep I spoke to (after 6 attempts to speak to someone who would answer me about why the Lounge went poof) told me that the Slashdotting brought a whole cluster to its knees. No shared hosting company would put up with that crap, and neither did Globat. They were offering a pretty good dedicated server deal, and would just transition the site to the server for free, so I went with it despite the rough treatment. I don't bear much ill will toward them; they were protecting their interests.

-Bolty

[DeeBye]

Dee, this is insane.&nbsp; No company can make a profit with this plan.&nbsp; $79/mo for all that?

Now I see that it's a shared server.&nbsp; I'm leery.&nbsp; They're not very specific about what constitutes "acceptable use" of their servers.&nbsp; Maybe I'll give them a call.

-Bolty

http://order.1and1.com/xml/order/Server

No, it's definitely a dedicated server.

Don't ask me how they make money. I don't know jack about hosting.

[Crystalion]

told me that the Slashdotting brought a whole cluster to its knees.&nbsp; No shared hosting company would put up with that

Well, actually, HE.net are high-bandwidth geeks (yes, the owner/founder is a geek, not an MBA or marketing slime) so when his employee AnotherBlackHat replied above saying that they would not disconnect you, but rather charge you for the bandwidth, you can bet they *have* the bandwidth.

Indeed, my personal friend (their R&D guy) had to write a web crawler a couple of years ago, just to find something to pull down enough bandwidth to really exercise the multiple OC3 connections he had available to him.

The cpu load issue on a shared box is the more likely constraint (but then, since they have clients who've been slashdotted, you could discuss that with them).

OTOH I rather like the idea people have proposed (including the HE.net guy!) of your using a business DSL to your home or workplace for a dedicated server (given how cheap the iron is, the monthly DSL cost is the only real factor these days).

Again, good luck.

[D-Dave]

Insane? Not realy. 1&1 makes money by sheer numbers. They can afford those prizes due to the fact that they simply have so many customers who will never ever use the monthly transfer volume.

In fact here in Germany (where they started buisness) they are the largest host, with about the same prices as quoted by Dee and making mean profit every year. So I guess it is just a matter of size to be able to make profit out of those prizes. (plus being a partner of both German Telekom and T-online helps a lot too ;) )

Greetings,
Dave

[Bob]

hmmm, I can't see a $79 option, but the computers for the $69 windows servers are 2GHz celerons with 256Mb of ram. Those could either be reconditioned computers bought second hand, or they could be the fancy-package servers from 2 years ago.
Oh, and for an operation like that, that's probably ALL that they are. A monitor/keyboard/mouse can be shared between dozens of computers in a big rack.
Either those computers didn't cost them much recently, or they've already recovered the cost of the computers from previous clients.

It may be a dedicated computer, but it sure as swansea isn't dedicated bandwidth. Apparently they have their own backbone... so, who do they have to pay to run that? oh, that's right, no-one. That's where the money is saved. Whereas other hosts have to pay for their transfer through-the-nose at per gigabyte prices, 1&1 can use as much as they want for what is almost a nil rate for data transfer as not - electrical impulses are not big current draws (in comparison to how much they'd have to use to use a single unit) and the laser's used in fibre-optics are minimal in power usage.

That's where they save their money.
-The computers are small and truly barebones, also reducing power consumption (no optical drives to spin). Notice all celeron/pentium, perhaps they have some sort of deal with Intel.
-Economies of scale
-They don't have to pay for most of their data transfer, but if you use over your limit, they'll still charge you.

At least that's my theory, to be taken with a huge shovel of salt.
Or it could just be that they don't make money on $69 packages, and just use them as loss-leaders to get people to make bigger websites which require their "premium plans", which cost more to the consumer, but possibly not much more to them, and that's where they make their cash.

-Bob