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Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
06-26-2004, 01:36 PM
Post: #1
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer or Doomgaze Trainer for Diablo 1?? I had them on my old computer and the page that had it has since shutdown.... If anyone has one or both send it to me at jfb392@hotmail.com I would like to get these trainers and google doesnt help by coming up with results that are in different languages lol thanx
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06-26-2004, 01:51 PM (This post was last modified: 06-26-2004 01:53 PM by LemmingofGlory.)
Post: #2
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
Quote:From: Forum Rules
No cheating allowed.
If you cheat in multiplayer games, you are not welcome to read or post at the Lurker Lounge. We ask you to respect the administrators' and posters' feelings on this matter and go to another site with less stringent rules against cheaters. However, if you choose not to respect our wishes, don't be surprised when you are met with extreme hostility from gamers who like to play games the way they are meant to be played. If you are ever caught admitting to cheating, you will be banned on sight.

It pays to read and lurk before posting.

Now, you have two choices.
(1) Never do this again.
(2) Leave.

-Lemmy
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07-03-2004, 05:09 AM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2004 05:26 AM by malach_cha_movis.)
Post: #3
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
Hi Lemmy, Pete, and other lurkers concerned with philosophical questions;

Forgive me for being long winded, but that seems to be my style. Though I lurk in computer game forums, that appeal to me, I don’t often contribute posts. Most of my questions are readily answered just by reading and researching the forum posts, and I usually don’t have the experience or the expertise to make useful contributions of my own.

Once in a great while however, a philosophical question arises in one of these game forums. These philosophical discussions hold great interest for me, because I enjoy participating in such discussions (debates? (ok, arguments!). When one of these questions occurs, I tend to believe that I have something worthwhile to add to the discussion.

Such is the case with this thread. It has been my experience that those websites that do not encourage the practice of cheating, and/or the free exchange of electronic media, have extremely strict and narrow definitions or these two practices.

Before I go any further, I should explain where my behavior stands in these matters, in case I did not make it clear in an earlier thread.
Regarding intellectual property, I do not solicit, nor do I accept licensed material, unless the license is transferred to me and all previous materials destroyed. I do not give away electronic media unless I own the license and I destroy my materials after I passed on the license.
Regarding cheating, I do not take unfair advantage of another player or players, or another person or persons in computer games, in gambling, or in real life.

I do not state the above to brag or try to impress others. It isn’t even what I necessarily believe. However, at this time, I find it most convenient to subscribe to these standards, but only for my own behavior.

Both these epistemological questions are quite complex and have been discussed by philosophers for thousands of years. The question concerning the ownership of intellectual property was touched upon in some detail in an earlier thread. However finding a definition of cheating in terms of computer games has me confused. So, if the Moderator, LemmingofGlory does not object and thus delete this post – here are some questions in no particular order.

A simple example of cheating in multiplayer computer games is to use an editor or trainer to alter a character’s stats and abilities, or to equip him with hacked items, when no one else in the game is aware of that this is occurring. I believe that all lurkers would consider this cheating, and completely unacceptable.

Now for a series of questions:
Multiplayer:

1. Is it cheating to use items such as trainers or editors to upgrade a character to a point where he/she can play with other members of a party; e.g., enter Hell/Hell?

2. If everyone in the game knew that an individual was using such practices and were willing to accept it, would it still be cheating?

3. If all players in the multiplayer environment knew that these practices might be taking place, is it cheating to use them secretly?

4 .Is the individual who has the time and the inclination to make a thousand runs through the first four levels in order to upgrade his Thinking Cap to a durability of twenty one, any less of a cheater than the player, who, with less time, hacks his TC to durability twenty one?

5. If one player professes to be friendly, is it cheating if he PK’s another player, or even worse, leads the second player into a trap where he is MK’d?

What about single player?
1. Is it possible to cheat at all in a single player game?
2. If the designers left hidden testing software in the game, is it cheating to use it?
3. Is it cheating to design your own or use another’s editor or trainer to aid you?
4. Is it cheating to use hint books or walkthroughs to finish a game?
5. Is it cheating to use an editor or trainer to research the underlying secrets of a game?
6. Is it cheating to disassemble the code for research purposes, when the publisher directly forbids it, when they issue the license?

At this point, I think you can see my confusion. If anyone answered no to all, some, or even one question, would he/she try to demonstrate a means that can be used to draw the line between cheating and not cheating.

Now for a slightly different but related question. If editors, trainers, and other aids can be permitted in some circumstances (Jarulf compiling his opus), then why the reluctance to provide ifb392 with directions to access the trainers he wanted. After all, what better place than Lurker’s Lounge (other than a modding site) to find the people with the necessary knowledge.

Are new lurkers are considered “guilty until proven innocent” or did I miss something obvious?

I am not criticizing the adoption of such a policy. In this country, the phrase “innocent until proven guilty” has been repeated so often, most people regard it as some sort of universal truth. It is no such thing. It is only a statement of a particular relationship between the government and the people of the United States. Many other governments, organizations, (social, religious, charitable) and groups choose to practice the former policy, “guilty until proven innocent.” For example, in the present climate, a Catholic Priest accused of Pedophilia is considered “guilty until proven innocent”

I am only seeking clarification.

I hope that the powers that be will decide to respond to this post. For any lurkers who wish to comment, support or vilify me, The floor is yours.

Malach_cha_Movis

Excellence is not a skill. It is a habit! - "Aristotle"
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07-03-2004, 06:24 AM
Post: #4
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
Well, malach, I'm afraid even as far as Diablo goes, your post is about 7 years late to this topic. It's long been determined that there is no way to draw a completely definitive line between legit play and cheating, but the strictly enforced ethos here is in favor of absolutely legit play, according to a strict moral standard in preference to an impossible-to-define and arbitrary legal standard. So these debates are rather pointless. Really, given a properly informed understanding of the game, it's a matter of intention more than legalities.

For what it's worth, here are my answers to your questions, which barely scratch the surface.

Quote:1. Is it cheating to use items such as trainers or editors to upgrade a character to a point where he/she can play with other members of a party; e.g., enter Hell/Hell?
Yes, of course.

Quote:2. If everyone in the game knew that an individual was using such practices and were willing to accept it, would it still be cheating?
Of course it would be.

Quote:3. If all players in the multiplayer environment knew that these practices might be taking place, is it cheating to use them secretly?
Are you serious?

Quote:4 .Is the individual who has the time and the inclination to make a thousand runs through the first four levels in order to upgrade his Thinking Cap to a durability of twenty one, any less of a cheater than the player, who, with less time, hacks his TC to durability twenty one?
Shrine runs=legit; hacks=cheating (duh!)

Quote:5. If one player professes to be friendly, is it cheating if he PK’s another player, or even worse, leads the second player into a trap where he is MK’d?
No, PK/MK is not the same thing as cheating (some people have certainly argued in the other direction, but IMO they're just wrong).

Quote:What about single player?
Yes you can cheat in the single player game, for 'bad' or 'good' reasons, but who cares? For sure, I don't so long as your character never ever interacts with the multiplayer community.

Quote:Are new lurkers are considered “guilty until proven innocent” or did I miss something obvious?
Give me a break. New lurkers, or old lurkers, who post asking for trainers are with very good reason indeed considered “guilty until proven innocent” -- actually they're considered "guilty and proven guilty" so jfb actually got off very easily.

Diablo was a great game, but public games suffered a rapid descent into absurdity because of hacks and cheats (Diablo II didn't fare much better) -- no better explanation of the vehement hatred of cheats (and the people who ask for them) from anyone who loved the game (like the people here).
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07-03-2004, 06:34 AM
Post: #5
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
Quote:1. Is it cheating to use items such as trainers or editors to upgrade a character to a point where he/she can play with other members of a party; e.g., enter Hell/Hell?

Absolutly. Any use of a 3rd party program to change a character is, by definition, cheating.

Quote:2. If everyone in the game knew that an individual was using such practices and were willing to accept it, would it still be cheating?

Again, yes. Just because the cheating is an accepted practice (which I doubt would happen if other DSFers were in the game) does not in any way change the fact that the player is cheating.

Quote:3. If all players in the multiplayer environment knew that these practices might be taking place, is it cheating to use them secretly?

Yes it is, just because people know that the cheating is going on, your still cheating.

Quote:4 .Is the individual who has the time and the inclination to make a thousand runs through the first four levels in order to upgrade his Thinking Cap to a durability of twenty one, any less of a cheater than the player, who, with less time, hacks his TC to durability twenty one?

The player who had to physically go down and do something according to the rules of the game is in no way a cheater, unless he is exploiting a bug (in this case he is not). The person who uses a trainer to do the same is cheating, because as stated before, he is using 3rd party software.

Quote:5. If one player professes to be friendly, is it cheating if he PK’s another player, or even worse, leads the second player into a trap where he is MK’d?

No, because both of those situations are atainable, and possible, without cheating. If, however, the PK/MKer is using godmode, impossible items, or any other cheat, then he is cheating. Not because he PK/MKed, but because he was cheating far before that.

Quote:What about single player?

Singleplayer is an entirely different subject, because there you are not affecting anyone elses play experience.

Here is how I've always seen it: If you are playing alone, or with other cheaters, then feel free to do whatever you want. However, if you are with a group of people who pride themselves by the fact that they will not cheat, then you should either go along with their wishes, or go and find another group of people who are more receptive to cheating.

Just to make sure, I am not acusing you of cheating yourself, just stating what I believe to be the common opinion around here. Hope that makes sense.

"You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts."
-Urza

He's an old-fashioned Amish cyborg with no name. She's a virginal nymphomaniac fairy princess married to the Mob. Together, they fight crime!

The Blizzcon Class Discussion:
Crowd: "Our qq's will blot out the sun"
Warlocks: "Then we will pewpew in the shade"
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07-03-2004, 06:37 AM
Post: #6
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
Heh, sorry about that, looks like I took a little bit too much time writing my reply ^_^

"You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts."
-Urza

He's an old-fashioned Amish cyborg with no name. She's a virginal nymphomaniac fairy princess married to the Mob. Together, they fight crime!

The Blizzcon Class Discussion:
Crowd: "Our qq's will blot out the sun"
Warlocks: "Then we will pewpew in the shade"
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07-03-2004, 06:44 AM
Post: #7
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
Well, at least we gave the same answers :)
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07-03-2004, 07:26 AM
Post: #8
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
Hi Thecla,
I never expected to respond so soon, but then again I didn't expect anyone to respond to my post this quickly either. Thank you very much for taking the time to send such an extensive reply.
Quote:Well, malach, I'm afraid even as far as Diablo goes, your post is about 7 years late to this topic.
I believe that you overlooked an important thought with this statement. For you, who might very well have been involved in the game for seven years, such a discussion might be old hat, but I have only been fooling with the game for a few months. I am a much more serious lurker than I am a player, and I noticed that Diablo I (like Wiz 8) still attracts many new players. This says much for the quality of the game, but it also means that for many of the questions, that were discussed and faced seven years ago, are just as new today as they were then. There still exist many live sites discussing strategy and tactics for Diablo, but there are very few sites if any that address ethical situations in Diablo gameplay or multiplayer gameplay in general. With the advent of MMORP's this absense has become even more pronounced. What better place than an experienced multiplayer game site to conduct these kinds of discussions, even if the only purpose is just to educate and inform rather than debate.

If you won't mind Thecla, I would like to further explore my first question. I propose the following hypothetical scenerio.

I am a level 22 Mage. Along the way I make friends with a group of players who are lvl 45 to 50. Maybe i joined a guild? Maybe I just have a winning personality(though it doesn't often seem so)? I explain to them that I may not be playing the game to much longer, but I would like to visit Hell/Hell. In order for me to do so, enough experience has to be added to my character to bring him up to at least lvl 30. In order that I survive my visit, even with my powerful guardians, I am twinked out with the best possible equipment. Possibly I am even supplied supplied with some hacked armor (HPOW) to make me even more invulerable. I have a very nice visit, eat lots of good monster meat supplied by compratriots and return to town. I then return all the items I was twinked with, destroy the HPOW, leave the game, and return my experience to the level it was before I travelled through H/H.

I would be very greatful, if you would explain to me why this might be considered cheating.
Quote:"guilty and proven guilty"
I agree that ifa stranger asked me for a knife, it would behoove me to be careful, as he might wish to cut my throat. Then again, he just might want to cut his food

Malach_cha_Movis

Excellence is not a skill. It's a habit! - "aristotle"
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07-03-2004, 08:34 AM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2004 08:50 AM by Urza-DSF.)
Post: #9
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
Quote:There still exist many live sites discussing strategy and tactics for Diablo, but there are very few sites if any that address ethical situations in Diablo gameplay or multiplayer gameplay in general.

This is true, and I believe I can help in that regard with a link to the Legit Diablo Play Manifesto written by Virgil Tibbs, which I believe sums up the different definitions of legit play that do exsist. Do note though that it is quite a long read, but well worth it.

http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~hoda/jc316.stormpa...tmanifesto.html

Quote:I would be very greatful, if you would explain to me why this might be considered cheating.

Fairly simple: you cheated. Items that could not exsist and programs that allowed you to do something that you could normally not (namely press a button and gain whatever experience you wanted) were used.

And even going with the "reversion" of the character: what did you get out of it then? To check out something not only before you were ready for it, but in such a way that all challenge is removed? I dunno about you, but I see that as a pretty worthless endevor

Rationalizing it by saying that it was just to check out hell/hell or that you wanted to play with much higher level players does not in any way change the fact that you cheated to do so, even if you did revert to a non-cheat state.

"You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts."
-Urza

He's an old-fashioned Amish cyborg with no name. She's a virginal nymphomaniac fairy princess married to the Mob. Together, they fight crime!

The Blizzcon Class Discussion:
Crowd: "Our qq's will blot out the sun"
Warlocks: "Then we will pewpew in the shade"
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07-03-2004, 02:29 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2004 02:33 PM by LemmingofGlory.)
Post: #10
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
Quote:Hi Lemmy, Pete, and other lurkers concerned with philosophical questions

The profound only interests me insofar as it has application. Profundity for the sake of profundity is irritating.

Quote:So, if the Moderator, LemmingofGlory does not object and thus delete this post – here are some questions in no particular order.

I just love how this depicts me as someone who has power and might use it (i.e. threatening) instead of depicting me based on how I've used my power.

Quote:Now for a series of questions:

How about you just ask the right question? "What is cheating in D1?"

The following assumes all players are playing the same game. It can be D1, HF, a mod, whatever. Comparing two characters playing different games serves no purpose, because cheating can only occur with respect to a specific game environment.

(1) Abusing game bugs for your benefit.
(2) Usage of third-party program to modify how the game works or change a game condition. Godmode, stat modification, learn all spells, free items. This includes using your operating system to restore a character who suffered a game-sanctioned loss (e.g. item loss because you died in H/H and couldn't retrieve them).
(3) Directly benefitting from another player engaging in (1) or (2).

Now, the practical purpose of all this is to determine two things:
(1 -- Multiplayer Aspect) Is this person someone I want to game with?
(2 -- Maintaining Gameplay Standards) If they have engaged in "shady practices," have they done something such that I discount any possible achievement they might make? This is also self-applicable : do I discount my own achievements with a character because I knowingly/unknowingly did some strange stuff?

"Legit" provides a standard for comparison of characters. At the Lounge, we believe playing the game is more than just "having fun." We're about learning the game, becoming proficient at it, understanding the game, and challenging yourself. People who're just out to "have fun" don't have the same standards that we do. And worse, they have a tendency to spread their low standards to others in multiplayer (i.e. cheating breeds cheating). That is unacceptable, so we will do everything in our power to prevent cheating.

Quote:If editors, trainers, and other aids can be permitted in some circumstances (Jarulf compiling his opus), then why the reluctance to provide ifb392 with directions to access the trainers he wanted. After all, what better place than Lurker’s Lounge (other than a modding site) to find the people with the necessary knowledge.

Profundity for the sake of profundity. Mix some realism in with your coffee, malach.

Assume that people act in their own best interest. Given that, what do you think he's going to use the trainer for?

-Lemmy
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07-03-2004, 05:37 PM
Post: #11
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
I would have to agree with Thecla and Urza that the answer to most of those questions is that yes, they are in fact cheating. However, whether there exists a thing called "acceptable cheating" is a matter of opinion.

I think this subject contains many shades of grey, and a single shade can be seen darker or lighter by different people. Even things that are technically not cheating may be seen as "cheesy or "cheap" by some, such as twinking out new characters with uber gear found on your high level character.

Quote:Diablo was a great game, but public games suffered a rapid descent into absurdity because of hacks and cheats (Diablo II didn't fare much better) -- no better explanation of the vehement hatred of cheats (and the people who ask for them) from anyone who loved the game (like the people here).
I think this does a good job of explaining why some people at the Lounge tend to see the shades of grey rather dark or have a low tolerance for the darker shades, and that's understandable if you ask me.

As for assuming a player asking for a trainer is going to use it to cheat, I think that's reasonable enough since that's what most players do. However, it wouldn't hurt to ask them what they intend to do with it. But I would imagine it would get old asking that question every time someone who intends to cheat asks for a trainer, since there are so many of them. So I can't really blame Lem for not asking.


Quote:4. Is it cheating to use hint books or walkthroughs to finish a game?
This is a rather interesting question... I would probably personally define that as cheating technically, though whether it is acceptable or not depends entirely on the situation. Reading a strategy guide is similar. In some situations I would consider it lame, while in others I'd consider it perfectly fine.

Less QQ more Pew Pew
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07-03-2004, 08:04 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2004 08:08 PM by Obi2Kenobi.)
Post: #12
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
I know, some of you beat me to it, but I want to add my own points, even if they are mostly the same.

Quote:1. Is it cheating to use items such as trainers or editors to upgrade a character to a point where he/she can play with other members of a party; e.g., enter Hell/Hell?
Yes.

Quote:2. If everyone in the game knew that an individual was using such practices and were willing to accept it, would it still be cheating?
Well, that depends on the situation, I think. If your character plays only with cheaters, and the cheaters you play with only play with cheaters, then sure, you're not affecting anyone else.

Quote:3. If all players in the multiplayer environment knew that these practices might be taking place, is it cheating to use them secretly?
Yea.

Quote:4 .Is the individual who has the time and the inclination to make a thousand runs through the first four levels in order to upgrade his Thinking Cap to a durability of twenty one, any less of a cheater than the player, who, with less time, hacks his TC to durability twenty one?
Yes. With the first, it was built into the game. With the second, you used third party programs.

Quote:5. If one player professes to be friendly, is it cheating if he PK’s another player, or even worse, leads the second player into a trap where he is MK’d?
Not cheating. Being a jerk, yea.

Note: For all the following, it is technically cheating, but it's not something I'd be against. So when I say "no", I mean I don't find it unnacceptable.

Quote:1. Is it possible to cheat at all in a single player game?
You can only cheat yourself in single player.

Quote:2. If the designers left hidden testing software in the game, is it cheating to use it?
No.

Quote:3. Is it cheating to design your own or use another’s editor or trainer to aid you?
No.

Quote:4. Is it cheating to use hint books or walkthroughs to finish a game?
No.

Quote:5. Is it cheating to use an editor or trainer to research the underlying secrets of a game?
No.

Quote:6. Is it cheating to disassemble the code for research purposes, when the publisher directly forbids it, when they issue the license?
Not cheating, but illegal. Although one could argue that as long as you don't accept the terms (all computer games make you do it, though), it's not technically illegal.

It is important to note that I would be against any of this as soon as a person tries to brag about their accomplishments. It takes away from the accomplishments of others. We play Diablo, you're playing Diablo with <editor>. Two different games.


/edit: I would be against it because it would make them a liar.

I know my title is misspelled. I'll get around to fixing it later, it's not that big of a deal. Wink
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07-03-2004, 08:07 PM
Post: #13
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
eww.nuff said
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07-04-2004, 07:53 AM
Post: #14
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
Obi2Kenobi,Jul 3 2004, 09:58 PM Wrote:Not cheating, but illegal. Although one could argue that as long as you don't accept the terms (all computer games make you do it, though), it's not technically illegal.
You should remember that what is legal and what is illegal, and also what a vendor can demand from you in his license, depends on where you are living.

AFAIK, where I live, the vendor cannot completely prohibit you from disassembling his code. For example, it is allowed for the purpose of 'interoperability' of software. I am not sure, but I think the US have a similiar law.
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07-05-2004, 12:42 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2004 01:30 PM by Fragbait.)
Post: #15
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
Hi,

Only disagreement on one point here.

Quote:QUOTE
2. If everyone in the game knew that an individual was using such practices and were willing to accept it, would it still be cheating?

Of course it would be.

I disagree here. He explicitely worded the question like this, mentioning that all others know of and are willing to accept these practices.
I'm quoting Merriam-Webster here:

"Merriam-Webster Online Thesaurus:

Entry Word: cheat
Function: verb
Text: to obtain something (as money) from or an advantage over by dishonesty and trickery <cheated out of his inheritance by a grasping lawyer>"

As you can see, there is no dishonesty and trickery involved here. He also isn't obtaining an advantage 'over' the others, since they are playing together, and he doesn't mention with one word that they fight against each other.

Furthermore, I'd like to add that there is no general 'definition' that the use of third party programs IS cheating. No, you can't put it like that. I am not a cheater because I have a calculator running while I'm playing Diablo to sum up some values I find important. I ain't no cheater because I have FoxBats DIIAccelerator running because I couldn't technically run the game without it. Such 'definitions' bring the bile up my gullet. They are just examples of narrow-minded jerks trying to express their fed up-ness with some alleged 'hacker dude' without having thought about the whole thing for one minute, but instead repeating old-established 'rules' that are none (no offense).
Game ethics are a very complicated subject. You sure have to adhere to the EULA of the game you just bought. But apart from that: Since you just paid money for it, it's now virtually yours, and you can do whatever you want with it as long as that doesn't violate any other general law. If it's your wish to sh** on it and then incinerate it without ever having played it, this is perfectly ok. Not 'normal' perhaps, but perfectly ok.
The general term 'no use of third party programs with our game xy' has got to be considered nonsense nowadays. I'm sure that there are other wordings that allow a greater restriction as to what is permitted with the game and are more practicable, but in our contemporary soft- and hardware world, such a harsh restriction is complete crap.
So yes, *if* the EULA of the game that you bought was readable *before* you bought it, or you are able to get your money back if you don't agree with the EULA (you usually don't get back a pence), and if this EULA includes that simply NO programs specified as - hackers, trainers, modifiers, editors or any other program that alters the game code in any way - are to be used with this particular software, *then* you aren't allowed to use them with the game.

Conclusion: Feel free to 'cheat' in singleplayer in most games. The only one you're cheating on is yourself. To check whether this rule is applicable or not, read the EULA of the games (and adhere to it).

Greetings, Fragbait

Quote:You cannot pass... I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. The Dark Flame will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go back to the shadow. You shall not pass.
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Quote:Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow, or it can crash! Be water, my friend...
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07-05-2004, 01:40 PM
Post: #16
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
Quote:2. If everyone in the game knew that an individual was using such practices and were willing to accept it, would it still be cheating?

Of course it would be.


I disagree here. He explicitely worded the question like this, mentioning that all others know of and are willing to accept these practices.


That doesn't go far enough. He doesn't state that everyone in the game is playing by the same set of rules. He doesn't state that the characters will be consistent with regards to what rules they follow. Most importantly, he doesn't guarantee us that this whole group of characters will never game with any other characters since he has previously played with them using these unorthodox rules.

Even if he did say all of that, he is still cheating *within the context of the original game*. The only difference is that he can now claim he is playing a new game, with it's own rules, and that he is not cheating at that game. This is the ethos of the mod community, that you follow the rules of the mod and play within the framework of the mod, even though you are cheating from the standpoint of the original game. Without following the points I mentioned above, however, he is still cheating at every game known to mankind except CalvinBall.

As far as the "only cheating yourself" thing goes, here is how I see it...

If you play a game only by yourself, and never even mention it to anyobody else, then the concept of "cheating" becomes essentially irrelevant any way you look at it. But if you even make a claim about the game for the sake of discussion, such as "I beat Diablo in hell difficulty," or even "Diablo is such an easy game," then you are making statements that imply a game with a known set of rules. The concept of cheating at this stage is relevant. To the extent that people care about your claims in the first place, they will care whether you followed the rules or not as well.
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07-05-2004, 09:00 PM
Post: #17
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
Oh cool! This is where we all, very politely and rationally, gang up on some verbose poseur who thinks he's got a justification for cheating. I LOVE this part! :rolleyes:

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07-06-2004, 07:49 AM (This post was last modified: 07-06-2004 08:03 AM by malach_cha_movis.)
Post: #18
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
Hi Sabra,

Can I join the gang when they attack the justifiers, coolly and politely, of course? But first can we make sure we all agree on what we are attacking.

If we are going to use the word cheater, let’s have a reasonable definition of the word that fits in with the real world dictionary definition. After all Sabra, I should not call you a pedophile, just because I wish to define pedophilia as the act of hugging and kissing one’s children or grandchildren when they are young.

Let’s first take the case of the player who joins a cooperative game of Diablo, and precedes to MK the other innocent players so he can loot their corpses. If this situation were presented to twelve reasonable, normal individuals outside the world of Diablo, the verdict would surely be “Guilty of Cheating”.

Now if we choose a situation where a player, a 26 level mage, who increases the durability of his TC to 21 someway other than by making a thousand boring, worthless, witless shrine runs and present that situation to the same jury, I am not sure the verdict would be the same. (Btw, I have not increased the durability of the two TCs that I found. In case anyone really cares?)

I think I have a solution. Let’s take LemmingofGlory’s list of prohibitions against legit play and give it a separate name. I know; lets call it “Huffing!” That way some types of behavior would be cheating, some types would be Huffing, and some would fall into both categories. Since this site supports legit play, all loungers can join together and castigate anyone who tries to justify cheating or Huffing. If any poster brags about being a cheater or a Huffer in a multiplayer game, they should be banned from the lounge immediately.

Now we don’t have to worry about the word “cheating” anymore, because everyone will easily recognize “cheating” behavior. That way, future discussions can be strictly limited to how many Huffers can fit on the head of a pin.

Attack those Huffer justifiers. Charge! Coolly and politely, of course.

Malach_cha_Movis

Excellence is not a skill, it’s a habit! - Aristotle
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07-06-2004, 10:01 AM (This post was last modified: 07-06-2004 10:15 AM by Urza-DSF.)
Post: #19
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
Quote:Let’s first take the case of the player who joins a cooperative game of Diablo, and precedes to MK the other innocent players so he can loot their corpses.  If this situation were presented to twelve reasonable, normal individuals outside the world of Diablo, the verdict would surely be “Guilty of Cheating”.

Im sorry, but how exactly did you come up with this conclusion? Barring the fact that its exceedingly difficult to MK a player with any skill who is already in a game, there is nothing preventing anyone from rounding up a huge group of monsters and placing a town portal in the middle of them. No trainers need to be used, no bugs are exploited, thus it is not cheating. Dirty tactics and poor sportsmanship definatly, but no one has cheated.

Not only that, but could you please define "normal"? Because according to the other qualifiers it seems like you'll be asking someone who does not have a clue how the game works and, because of that, has no standing to make any claims about its operations.

Quote:Now if we choose a situation where a player, a 26 level mage, who increases the durability of his TC to 21 someway other than by making a thousand boring, worthless, witless shrine runs and present that situation to the same jury, I am not sure the verdict would be the same. (Btw, I have not increased the durability of the two TCs that I found. In case anyone really cares?)

Again, I fail to see your logic. Doing something that is allowed by the game, without exploiting a bug or using a third party program that changes the games environment is without any doubt not cheating.

Not to mention the fact that its quite possible to get a TC up to 21, 31 or even higher on a single run, depending on how well your luck holds out.

Quote:Since this site supports legit play, all loungers can join together and castigate anyone who tries to justify cheating or Huffing.

I really don't understand what point your trying to make here, because anything that is not legit is cheating by definition.

"You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts."
-Urza

He's an old-fashioned Amish cyborg with no name. She's a virginal nymphomaniac fairy princess married to the Mob. Together, they fight crime!

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07-06-2004, 10:25 AM
Post: #20
Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?
From m-w.com:

cheat- (verb, intransitive sense)
1b : to violate rules dishonestly (as at cards or on an examination)

This is usually the sense of "cheat" that gamers use. Note that a poker player can bid high on a bad hand in a deliberate, dishonest attempt to swindle his fellow players out of money. That poker player would generally not be considered a cheater, because he followed the rules of the game.

In computer games, the fundamental "rules" are layed out by the way the game is coded. And so, this is the central point in determining what qualifies as cheating.
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