Tiz the end of an era

[[wcip]Angel]

Warning: Massive spoilers ahead!! Make sure you've seen the last episode of Angel before reading on!

I can’t believe it’s over. The 8 year old Buffy-verse has finally come to an end. It saddens me to know there won’t be any more shows set in the universe of Whedon’s Buffy & Angel. Up until recently, I had high hopes they’d bring in the cast of the former to make one hell of a season finale for the latter. We never got to see what happened to the scoobie gang after Sunnydale blew up, and with the series finale over, we never got to see what happened to Angel and the Shan-shu prophecy.

Since its inception, the prophecy was designed for one thing: to guarantee a normal life with Buffy after the war was over. Until recently, it caused me much pain to see what they’d done to the Angel-character. First the thing with Cordelia, and then the werewolf-lady. Now, I’m not that annoyed with the fact that they didn’t bring back Sarah for the finale, even though I would have loved to see an apocalyptic battle with Giles, Xander, Willow and Buffy fighting alongside Angel, Wesley, Illirya and Gunn.

Still, with the exception of the last 30 seconds of the finale, I’m happy with how they played it out, despite that I didn’t get why Lorne wanted out, and why he killed off the hippie.

If you’ve been following the show, it’s obvious even from not hearing about the show’s cancellation, that the ending was rushed. I think Joss did the best he could, but this is not what he had in mind when he started writing season 5. To this day, I don’t know what WB/Fox/Mutant enemy/whoever the hell’s responsible, were thinking when they decided to kill off the show. Add the Firefly-fiasco (the show was great, the cancellation of it was less so), and I can’t help wonder what’s wrong with these people? Here you have two great shows with excellent premise and a substantial fanbase, and still they cancel them. It’s just so annoying, especially considering all the crap that’s on TV.

Bah! I’m just so irritated when there are so many unanswered questions that we never get to to know the answers to, such as
• What happened to Angel and the rest of the gang in that alley? Did they all die?
• What about the rest of L.A, and the world for that matter. Were the “Senior Partners” just out to get Angel or was the swift retribution for all of mankind?
• What about Buffy, and the thousands of other slayers now popping up everywhere in the world. How would this change the balance between demons and humans?
• The Shan-shu-prophecy? How does signing a prophecy change anything when, as Giles stated in season 1, “It’s only a prophecy. It’s not written in stone.”?
• How would Wes’ father react to his son’s demise?

Bleh! I need another season! Just one more!

Wow. It’s really over, isn’t it? I feel like I’m dreaming. I knew this day would come, and I knew it wasn’t far off, but after just having seen the series finale, I just can’t bring myself to contemplate a situation where I’m not looking forward to next week’s episode. It’s depressing.

[--Pete]

Hi,

While I feel that Buffy should have ended with the season finale when she sacrificed herself to save Dawn, and that Angle has gone steadily downhill from when Connor reappeared from whatever hell dimension Holt had taken him to, I did watch every show of both series (but starting with Buffy reruns, since I wasn't watching TV when the series started). Both shows suffered greatly from the "What do we do next?" syndrome. As well as the "It's weird, so let's do it." syndrome. That being said, it was great television, with likable characters (and actors and actresses), decent humor, and a self-deprecatory style that I found appealing.

Since I cannot abide the snide backstabbing that passes for humor on most sitcoms (Frasier was a welcome exception), the phony "realistic" situations of "reality TV" (thanks, I'll just go wander the mall if I want to see real people in real situations), and the inanity of most prime time soaps, my TV viewing is greatly limited. I care little for what passes for news out of the entertainment industry, so I have no idea why either show was canceled. I regret that they were, since they were two of the very few shows usually worth (IMO) watching.

OTOH, that frees up yet more time for reading and, especially "testing" WoW. I guess every silver lining does have a dark cloud :)

--Pete

[Daemon]

All good things must come to an end... to make room for some of that so called "reality-tv". Poison for the mind if you ask me...

Celebrity-in-a-can, Instant Stardom, everybody wants their 15 minutes of fame. I simply despise that very concept. I could write a full page about that, but I'd probably just wind myself up :angry: and say things that would give the Mods a good reason to open a can of editing.

So I'll leave it at this for now!

BTW, reality tv $U><0rZ ! :P

-D

[WarLocke]

Angel,May 20 2004, 08:06 AM] • What happened to Angel and the rest of the gang in that alley? Did they all die?

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm a sucker for 'doomed heroes'. Having Angel and (what was left of) the gang die in that alley would be the perfect ending, IMO. No candy-coating with the 'he's the hero, so he always wins' ploy, just a hero doing what he knows to be right even though it will kill him.

That may just be me, however. The cut at the end leaves it open, in case Whedon can ever come back to the 'verse.

[LemmingofGlory]

I didn’t get why Lorne wanted out, and why he killed off the hippie.

It was my impression that killing Lindsey was on Angel's orders. Lorne's depression, though, struck me as rather out of character.

• What happened to Angel and the rest of the gang in that alley? Did they all die?

The ending reflects the theme of the final few shows: "Victory is impossible. All you can do is fight." As such, I felt the ending worked very well. I like that it's unresolved. It seems somehow more heroic that way.

• How would Wes’ father react to his son’s demise?

I thought Wes's death was just a ratings grabber; they shouldn't have put it in the previews for the finale, at any rate. Illyria's humanization at Wes's death was touching. She rather reminds me of a recycled version of Anya, though.

-Lemmy

[BigGrim]

Warning, spoilers per usual in a thread like this:

Well, first off...UPN didn't pick up the option for Angel, reportedly due to the steady decline of the network that has limited the money they can spend purchasing it from Fox, particularly after how much they paid for the last seasons of Buffy.

There are rumors of possible Angel telemovies, which might be possible considering the Buffyverse still has a considerable fanbase that is clamoring for a proper ending to both series. Since UPN didn't pick up the rights from Fox, it would mean that the WB still has the option of approaching Joss to do some with a lot of rumors saying that plans are already in the works. We always like to hope, don't we?

Anyhow, onto the final episode stuff...

Wow. For me this season more than made up for the travesty that was the grown-up Conner arc (I liked the Darla pregnancy and the baby episodes with Waiting in the Wings coming to mind). It even grudgingly made me like Conner a bit in the two episodes he was in, because they were appropriate to wrap up some loose ends and Conner was given a bit more dimension when he wasn't simply a plot device.

So many surprises in one hour and it's too bad the WB had to spoil the scene with Lorne/Lindsey during the previews, I would have never seen it coming. Even when it did happen, it was a huge shock. First of all, it was Lorne, who subtlely shifted to the darker side in comparison to how working for Wolfram & Hart affected the rest of Angel's company. I saw people complaining he was underused but at that final moment, the impact just hit in a lot stronger about how everything got to him. Next, Angel ordered him to do it, after Angel spoke to Lindsey about it not being about them and Lindsey telling Eve that Angel would do right by him. No wonder Angel didn't say anything when Lorne said he wouldn't be coming back since he knew what he'd just ordered Lorne to do. Finally, it was Lindsey who finally died. Sorry, but the character was just pivotal to the whole Angel series and the shock in his face when Lorne shot him pretty much summed up what I thought, but his words were equally haunting. "I'm not just...Angel...kills me..." He knew he was going to die at some point, but never to the 'lackey'.

Harmony betraying Angel to Hamilton? It wasn't too much of a surprise, but it was something that just made me appreciate how well we know even the supporting players. The more surprising thing was that Angel suspected it, and set it up so that he'd have a showdown with Hamilton because of it. Then he even gave Harmony a recommendation that was already on her desk knowing he was going to fire her instead of staking her. How Angel killed the Archduke was clever, but it doesn't match the mold of what we'd traditionally see a champion of good doing, y'know? Even James Bond didn't go around poisoning his adversaries.

Wesley and Illyria? Oddly enough, this was the one thing that I was totally prepared for and predicted. When I was warned someone was going to die, it had to be Wesley, since he was the lovebird that was waiting to die in order to be with his mate...or not, considering Fred's soul was consumed by Illyria. I believe that of all the actors on Angel, Alexis Denisof has put on the most consistently surprising and powerful performances considering how we first knew him from Buffy. When he asked Illyria to lie for him, it was a very touching moment. When Fred died, I theorized that a part of her existed in Illyria since there's always that concept of love lasting forever. Illyria even told Gunn that he was not unpleasant to her eyes after telling him not to die, perhaps showing Fred's affection for her former lover. I believe that if another season was to take place, Wesley would've been brought back in order to somehow continue the Fred-Illyria/Wesley relationship that was developing. If Willow could've brought Buffy back, I'm sure a grieving Illyria who has substantial power and knowledge yet not able to fully understand the concept of grief without her guide would attempt a similar resurrection.

Anyhow. For [wcip]Angel, I'll make mention of what I perceived as some answers to those questions. Like Giles said about prophecies, they aren't written in stone. When Angel signed that document in blood, it was his sacrifice much like in Season One when he sacrificed his humanity to save Buffy when he realized he could not fight the evil as well as he could as a vampire. As it stands, Angel gave up the Shanshu prophecy because he knew the fight against evil would never end and that the world would always need champions. Like Angel said to Lindsey, "Maybe they're not there to be beat, maybe they're there to be fought. Maybe fighting them is what makes human beings remarkably strong".

Maybe there's a happy ending for Angel and Buffy, but like Angel and Cordelia noted during her last episode:

Cordelia: Guess we missed our moment, huh?
Angel: Maybe we were meant to. Or maybe people like us just don't get to... have that.
Cordelia: Angel, there are no people like us.

Buffy with the Immortal in "The Girl in Question", Angel with Nina in "Power Play", and the fact that if he survived, Angel said he'd go to find Nina was put a bit of a hamper on the 'destined' ending of Angel and Buffy, which it was supposed to...for the moment. Much like the Shanshu prophecy.

The rest is left to your imagination, which is what the ending of the finale pretty much did. Angel and the rest could've died in that alley heroically, with the message of the eternal fight resounding with each sword clang that other champions will come forth to sacrifice themselves against evil.

Conner: They'll destroy you.
Angel: As long as you're okay, they can't.

They could've survived, in which case...the fight still goes on because there will always be evil to fight for them. What happens with the characters after that I suppose they can be left to fanfics, books, and hopefully telemovies.

Oh. I also liked parts of the ending simply because of the dialogue, from Illyria talking about Wesley "I am feeling grief for him. I cannot seem to control it. I wish to do more violence." To Angel and Spike's last exchange:

Spike: And in terms of a plan?
Angel: We fight.
Spike: Bit more specific?
Angel: Well, I kind of want to slay the dragon. Let's go to work.

-Grim-

[[wcip]Angel]

I always enjoy watching other Buffy-fans express their opinions of the show(s). Thanks for your reply, BigGrim. I enjoyed reading it very much.

As for the "doomed heroes"-thing Warlocke was talking about. I suppose I don't mind Angel being kiled at the end of the series. If he's not going to be with Buffy, or if he's not turned evil, that's the third option I'd like for that character. But I wanted a more folklory-aspect of his end? Is this really the end of The Scourge of Europe? Is this how the fiercest beast in European history goes out in flames? I guess I just wanted a little more reflection on his life towards the end.

I just think his death should have been drawn out much more, which is hard, I know, because how long can you make dust settle? I can imagine someone sitting "Whatever happened to Angel?". "Oh he was squashed by the senior partners for screwing up their inner circle or whatever." "Oh". It's just that his death seemed so less eventful than what it should've been (Compare this death to the Acathla-thing, which was beautiful.)

I know I'm ranting, and it's all pointless dribble, but I have a tendency to become embarrassingly incoherent when I'm depressed.

As for tv-movies, there's a thread at imdb.com (under "Angel", obviously) where someone's gotten ahold of some information saying there won't be tvmovies.

I hope the movie for Firefly is still on. It's not nearly as fantastic as Angel, but it's still pretty entertaining. (And I count 3 Buffy/Angel-villain-actors among the cast: Caleb from Buffy's season 7. African American-woman-whose-name-I-can-never-remember who ate people at the end of season 4 of Angel, and they guy Angel and Connor killed off in the series finale of Angel.)

Where do we go from here?
Where do we go from here?
The battle's done and we kind of won
so we sound our victory cheer.
Where do we go from here?

[BigGrim]

For a very interesting read when it comes to an episode analysis, try this link:

Do Not Go Gently Into That Good Night

It gives a pretty good review and explanation of several allusions that I hadn't even caught myself, even when it came to the title. The last scene does seem fitting for the poem of Dylan Thomas where the brave fight against the dying of the light.

-Grim-

[WarLocke]

Angel,May 20 2004, 02:36 PM]I suppose I don't mind Angel being kiled at the end of the series. If he's not going to be with Buffy, or if he's not turned evil, that's the third option I'd like for that character. But I wanted a more folklory-aspect of his end? Is this really the end of The Scourge of Europe? Is this how the fiercest beast in European history goes out in flames? I guess I just wanted a little more reflection on his life towards the end.

Well, here's the way I looked at it:

Angel signs away his role in the Shan-shu prophecy. Now, we don't know if that actually meant anything - as you pointed out earlier, Giles says that the prophecy isn't written in stone. But we don't know if he's right or wrong - or even if this is a continuity error. Maybe he really did sign away his chance to become human.

In that case, what does Angel have left to 'live' for? He can't become human, he can't have Buffy... all he has left is the fight. And while I can't claim to have been a regular watcher of the show, I've been trying to catch as much of the last season as I can. Angel looked tired - tired of fighting, tired of taking down one threat, only to find that there's another, worse one behind it. He only had three reasons to keep on living - and he had to sign away the pivotal one for the greater good.

Angel dying in that alley would be a bittersweet ending, no doubt. But it's perfectly fitting his character. No one person (or vampire) can triumph over evil, and Angel has earned his peace - whether it be by Buffy's side, or in oblivion.

[LochnarITB]

As I was watching the ending last night, taped so that I could skip the commercials, I thought to myself, "I bet [wcip]Angel has already started a thread on the Lounge." :D

I have to say I enjoyed the episode very much. My TV watching, both taped and real time, is almost always done while doing something else, usually while I'm on my laptop either gaming or doing something not quite as enjoyable. For the Angel finale, the computer was set aside and the show had my full attention. I, too, am sad to see it go. Although I see no way for the ending to lend itself to any possibilty of continuation, I do feel it was appropriate. Even when they were first brought into the firm, it was apparent that they were there to bring some degreee of light to the darkness, even if it was just a candle pushing back the blackest night. That they were to be hit so hard showed that they had indeed gone far above their calling for the benefit of the world and at their own expense. As Grim also noted, I loved the final dialouge, especially Angel's quip, "Personally, I'd kinda like to slay the dragon." Champion to the end!

[Cryptic]

Well, I may catch some flak for this, but as a fan of both series, I'm glad they're both over.

(Boooo! Hsssssss!)

OK, I survived that.
:P

Why? Well, for several reasons. First, I feel that both shows had their strongest shows in about the 2nd & 3rd seasons, after characters were established and things were really heating up. The dialogue, characterization, and situations were all fabulous. I still enjoy going back to these on DVD.

But as the series went on, they suffered from a clear case of "How do we top the last one?" Thus we got a lot of episodes like ...

* OK, who hasn't turned evil yet? Well, they turn evil!
* Uh oh. Everyone interesting has turned evil at least once. Who of the redeemed characters hasn't been evil in awhile. OK ... s/he turns evil, again!
* Umm, no plot this week. Gimmick time. Musical, flashbacks, video diary, one-shot? What shall we do?
* Hmm. Still no plot, and we've used up all the gimmicks. So what can we do now? I know! Sexual orientation! Someone changes sexual orientation, or ... an ex returns? Or they change loyalties? Maybe they should just bicker about relationships.

Etc.

The worst, for me, was seeing that death was a temporary setback for major characters. Once I realized that nothing bad could happen to the heroes, even if they died, I lost interest in the characters' development. Mortals are interesting, immortals are not.

All in all, both shows had a fabulous run. And although they both got long in the tooth, they both ended while they were still somewhat near their prime quality. I think that's all we can hope for. Also, Angel was left open enough that there may still be miniseries (of higher coherency and quality, no doubt), so I'm not at all sad that the main series ended.

I grew quite disillusioned with the shows as time went on. But I think they sent a high mark in the characterization department, and were prime examples of how to mix comedy and drama and come up with something compelling.

They will be missed. But they would have been missed more if they continued, if you get my meaning.
;)

[[wcip]Angel]

Read the lyrics to "Once more with feeling". I think you'll find that's one of the plot-heaviest episodes of the season.

* Willow and Tara split up because of the events that take place
* Giles finds out he must leave Buffy
* The Spike/Buffy-relationship
* The gang find out Buffy was in heaven, and not in "some hell-dimension." (this is a biggie.)

I too think season 2 of Buffy was the best, and that neither season 4 or 5 of Angel could top 2 and 3, but we still tune in to see The Simpsons every week despite the fact that their heyday was 4-6 seasons ago. :)

[BigGrim]

Did you not see the episode of the Simpsons where Homer dresses up as Pie-Man, smacks Mr. Burns in the face with a pie, runs through all those security camera monitors drinking beer, coffee, and scratching himself before stopping at a couch and laying down to nap? Then...the best part of the gag was that Mr. Burns turns around in his chair and the sofa was right behind him! That had my whole family cracking up.

A lot of shows have their heyday early on during the run, but we enjoy watching them because we've grown accustomed to their face. And no, I'm not going to sing that a'la Sideshow Bob. A lot of things in life grow a bit predictable and we just enjoy them because they entertain us and it fills us with that comfortable familiarity.

I loved the musical episode, particularly since Tony award winner Hinton Battle was the baddie. Sweet's Song was smooth, and the soft shoe number was pretty good although I've seen him do better.

Alright. I'm off.

Pie-Man away! I mean...BigGrim...No! Pie-Man!

-Grim-

[WarLocke]

Angel,May 20 2004, 06:01 PM] I too think season 2 of Buffy was the best, and that neither season 4 or 5 of Angel could top 2 and 3, but we still tune in to see The Simpsons every week despite the fact that their heyday was 4-6 seasons ago. :)

I don't know, if memory serves season 2 was still suffering from a bit of the 'hokeyism' season 1 had, when the show was still trying to be like the movie. Seasons 3 and 4 were great, and I personally think season 5 (the Dawn/Glory arc) was the best.

In fact, except for the stuff with Willow later on, I think that the best place to have ended Buffy would have been at the end of season 5.

[Medicine Man]

I'm also a fan of the Buffyverse, but I too have to agree with Cryptic on one point; I'm glad Buffy and Angel are both over now. Both series were feeling well and truly 'played-out' by the end. Definately time to put things to rest while its still possible to have a meaningful ending.

A few comments, some in response to questions posted here, some just pulled out of the ether:

* Lorne 'bowing out' at the end makes perfect sense for his character (IMO). He isn't, and never was, a Conanesque-fighter but hung in there because he was a loyal friend. He was asked to kill Lindsay by Angel. I'm positive he knew that Lindsay wasn't 100% evil -- particularly after years of Karoke in his club -- but he was persuaded it was the right thing to do. I think Lorne was slowly approaching his limits as the season wore on and his final decision wasn't surprising.

* Angel wanted Lindsay dead because he had no intention of simply replacing one evil prick with another. The whole season was arguably about the 'lesser of evils', but not the ending. Did Lindsay really need to die? Hell if I know... he wasn't evil, but he was weak... maybe Angel made a good call there.

* Unless there is indeed a TV movie sequel in the works, I'd say all of the heroes died at the end. They did what is sometime called 'Going out in a blaze of glory' -- a good death. Deaths like that is what people write massively exaggerated sagas about in later years.

* As they elude to many times in the show, neither death nor victory is really the point. They just had to fight until they couldn't any longer. I'd bet its the same for the senior partners. We know they aren't subject to that death part, I'd bet they aren't interested in victory either.

* Last but not least. What is with all this crap about a champion having to be so noble? Already inherit to being a champion of the downtrodden is a mammoth dose of self-sacrifice, the occasional beating, never being able to do things for your self, never getting a good paycheck, and, in Angel's case, tonnes of guilt. Why then is the champion also expected to refrain from sucker punches, sneak attacks, dirty tricks and general connivance? I love the fact that Angel poisoned Duke 'Whatshisname' with his army of 40000 demons. That's using the old noodle! After a century or two of practice at being an evil prick, he should be rather good at playing dirty pool. Furthermore, he shouldn't have any trouble knowing where the line between 'irredeemable evil' and 'justifiable evil' is, having been over said line more than a few times in the past. In the Buffyverse, a vampire is pretty low on the foodchain, even one with a nice coat -- I wonder how many of his hopeless fights he would have won if he were willing to be a right bastard on occasion?

Oh well. I'm glad its over but I'm sorry its over. How messed up is that?

Cheers.

[Mirajj]

...I'm not a huge fan of either show, being able to count the number of episodes I've seen of both on one hand. However, I have a friend who's very much into both shows.

In talking to her, and reading an article in the local paper the other day, I was under the impression that one of the main reasons that Angel ended was that the network picked up someone (writer? Director?) that I can't remember his name, and he had his own idea's for a "vampire" show. One of the clauses in his contract was that Angel end.

Joss and crew had to rush the ending, as they had written Season 5 with a 6 and 7 in mind.

[Rinnhart]

Both shows were well written and for that alone I mourn their passings. The overall stories and characters were pretty 'bleh' but episode to episode they had some of the best lines and exchanges I've ever heard on TV.

I was under the impression that one of the main reasons that Angel ended was that the network picked up someone (writer? Director?) that I can't remember his name, and he had his own idea's for a "vampire" show. One of the clauses in his contract was that Angel end

Better be a damn good show.

[LochnarITB]

I didn’t get why Lorne wanted out, and why he killed off the hippie.

It was my impression that killing Lindsey was on Angel's orders. Lorne's depression, though, struck me as rather out of character.

I just finished watching a replay of the episode and noticed something. Lorne must have known he was destined to kill Lindsey. Just before he shot him he said, "I've heard you sing..." Therefore, Lorne had previously read Lindsey and would have known what was coming. Do we even know that Angel actually ordered it or did Lorne tell Angel what he had seen and they both knew that this is when it was going to happen?

[Medicine Man]

I didn’t get why Lorne wanted out, and why he killed off the hippie.

It was my impression that killing Lindsey was on Angel's orders. Lorne's depression, though, struck me as rather out of character.

I just finished watching a replay of the episode and noticed something. Lorne must have known he was destined to kill Lindsey. Just before he shot him he said, "I've heard you sing..." Therefore, Lorne had previously read Lindsey and would have known what was coming. Do we even know that Angel actually ordered it or did Lorne tell Angel what he had seen and they both knew that this is when it was going to happen?

I think it was a reference to all the times Lindsey had sung in his Karoke bar -- back when he had a bar and when Lindsey worked for Wolfram & Hart. From all of the past exposure, Lorne would already have a good idea about Lindsey's character -- enough at least to know that Angel's suspicions about Lindsey were intelligent ones.

Enough reason to kill Lindsey in cold blood? Only if you are deeply in 'Ends justify the means' mode and realize that you probably aren't going to be around to keep him in line later. All told, I can understand why Lorne felt dirty after that.

[Medicine Man]

Something occurred to me recently while I was thinking about the whole 'end of the Whedon-verse' thing. It's not common knowledge but Josh Whedon actually wrote an eight issue maxi series for Dark Horse comics, called 'Josh Whedon's Fray, Tales of the Future Slayer'. For those truly rabid Buffy fans, it is worth a look and can be picked up in a handy trade-paperback format (all 8 issues in one book). It has all the signature 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' stuff: social misfits against vs the forces of darkness, family, dark comedy, and one of the funniest, most succinct ends to an overhyped vampire vs slayer duels ever. (Incidentally, those of us who have read Fray recognized the nifty Axe-Stake weapon Buffy found in season seven -- the comic is where it appeared first)

Although the story is set far enough in the future that you aren't going to see any familiar faces (think Blade Runner), it is in continuity with the rest of the Whedon-verse. In case comics aren't your thing, I'll try to point out what parts of Fray got me thinking about the end of Angel, without spoiling Fray.

Near the start of Fray, you find out that the Slayer line, the Watchers, and pretty much all of the Vampires have been gone for a very long time. The demons have lost their foothold in the mortal world as well. While the comic does not elaborate a lot on this topic, it does mention that there were *several* desperate battles between good and evil before the forces of evil were given their walking papers. A young lady looking alot like Sarah is depicted at this point.

What does that all mean? Maybe not a lot -- but my take on it is that the season finales of Buffy and Angel were major engagements in the "Final Battle" eluded to in Fray. Although I truly believe that Gunn, Angel and Aleria all died in that last fight (maybe not Spike), I think that the Senior Partners did not ever recover from the damage done that night. It wasn't Angel Inc.'s intention to do lasting damage, it was more of an act of defiance, but I think they did some anyhow.

I guess its all cold comfort now anyhow... maybe Josh will write a TV movie or two. Who knows.