Good marketing or missing the boat?

[--Pete]

Hi,

Magi's beloved SHO finally got too long in the tooth to keep. So we went car shopping this past weekend. Damn the makers for the avalanche of names (many differentiated by just a few immaterial features). Praise for the Internet as a way to get info fast and as a filter for what to actually go look at.

The main choice soon became obvious. Not being able to afford the *insurance* on a Ferrari, much less the payments, she had to choose between a mid range V-6 which would giver her the power and handling she was accustomed to (as well as, sigh, the gas mileage or lack thereof) and a smaller, more efficient car. And the "small and efficient" pretty quickly became "a hybrid".

And therein lies the tale. There seem to be two hybrids supposedly on the market, the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Hybrid (how's that for clever naming). However, that is misleading. While one can buy the Honda right now, the Toyota is *out of stock for at least ten months*!!!!!!!

Now, this makes no sense to me at all. I'm familiar with the price-volume charts that show how to maximize profits. But all the charts I've seen show that the profit goes to zero when the volume does. And I can't believe that Toyota is selling many cars ten months out -- that was the norm in the '50s and '60s for cars special ordered. Note that that ten month wait at Toyota is *not* for a specially ordered car with the colors and options you want. That wait is for whatever rolls in at that time. Toyota seems to have taken a page from the original Ford ("You can have any color you want as long as it's black") book of customer care arrogance.

Suffice to say that even though there was one available for a test drive (but not to purchase), we didn't even bother. As Magi phrased it, "I might like it and then be dissatisfied by what I actually buy."

So, Toyota? Smart marketing or self inflicted foot wound?

And, yes, Magi opted for the Civic Hybrid -- which she drove away about two hours after she decided on it. And which, if her past cars are any guide, I'll get to drive in a year or so. :)

--Pete

[Nvts]

If it makes sense, I'll be looking into getting a hybrid as well.

Hope so see some good info here later :)

[Griselda]

It worked for the MiniCooper and the PT Cruiser, so maybe Toyota thinks they'll sell more in total if people think there's a higher demand for their cars? (Personally, it sounds like they missed the boat)

Congrats on the new Hybrid. We recently bought a non-hybrid Civic, but the hybrids sure looked nice. What color did you pick? We picked the dark-silvery one.

-Griselda

[--Pete]

Hi,

Well, you know me and colors -- there's a whole lot of the spectrum that's all gray to me :) So, to me it looks like a mid shade of gray, but I'll get Magi to answer that one when she's around. Didn't really pick it, as it was the only color available at the moment. I couldn't tell and Magi seemed to like it, so . . .

What with the tax credit (1500/1000/500) over the next three years and the gas savings, the price difference between the normal Civic and the Hybrid should be recouped over the lifetime of the car. Of course, what do I know -- gas could go back to 30 cents a gallon. But I'm not betting on it :)

--Pete

[Griselda]

What with the tax credit (1500/1000/500) over the next three years and the gas savings, the price difference between the normal Civic and the Hybrid should be recouped over the lifetime of the car.

We realized that when we bought the non-hybrid, but we were in a position where the high end of our budget just about reached the low end of the Civics. :P So, we're just happy that we're getting better gas mileage than our 1988 Plymouth Voyager with 200,000 miles on it! Plus, in the new car I don't feel like the steering wheel's about to come loose every time I go around a corner. :unsure:

-Griselda

[Wapptor]

Should've bought a new VW Passat TDI. Its a turbocharged, inline 4 cylinder diesel engine that makes 134 hp/ 245 lbs of torque. It's fast, and its very fuel economical too. Plus, modern diesel emissions are much better thanks to better filters and low sulfur diesel fuel. And its pretty too! But congratulations on the new car.

-Wapptor

[Griselda]

I had an '85 VW, and I just hated paying twice as much for parts as I would have paid for a domestic or a Japanese car. That *might* not be true for newer Volkswagens, but I certainly didn't want to take the risk! Hondas have a better reliability rating, and, being that I'm getting old and boring, that mattered quite a bit.

I suspect we have different priorities as far as cars go, which is why I suppose they make so many different kinds of cars. I had a fast car before, but that one was a PITA to repair too. :angry:

-Griselda, old stick-in-the-mud ;)

[--Pete]

Hi,

I've got nothing against VW -- had a '61 Beetle that I drove 250,000 (second engine) for about 3 cents a mile and never let anyone else work on. However, VW has gone way downhill in reliability over the years. And if we were going to get a sporty car, we would have gotten a *sports* car. We have nothing against them, either :)

Given that there isn't a curve of interest on Magi's commute, that the traffic is way too thick for progressive driving, and that gas is going up, the primary concern was mileage. And I couldn't find squat that did that better (on four wheels) than the hybrids.

--Pete

[ShadowHM]

What with the tax credit (1500/1000/500) over the next three years

Hi Pete

How does that work?

I would assume it is a federal initiative, to wean folks from the gas guzzlers, but does that mean it reduces income for purposes of calculating income tax payable?


Shadow, who is always curious about how different governments pursue 'social ends' in their tax structures. B)

[--Pete]

Hi,

Since Magi opened her consulting firm, about six years ago, her accountant has done our taxes. Thus I am now as ignorant of the tax laws as any private citizen and almost as much as the IRS help desk :)

My understanding is that the deduction is just that -- an amount subtracted from the income prior to calculating the tax. And, yes, it is a federal initiative.

Even nicer in some places (but not in Washington) is that hybrids and electrics get to use the HOV lanes. More info here.

As an aside: I don't think these "incentives" are a good idea, just like I don't think HOV lanes are a good idea. However, just as I'll obey a law that I disagree with, I'll take advantage of a law I disagree with, too.

--Pete

[ShadowHM]

We have them here in Toronto, too. They are on main streets (not on the freeways or highways) and are applicable during rush hours only. The main rationale was to keep a lane somewhat open for the city buses during that time frame, but the secondary objective was to get people to carpool to get into the city for work.

As far as I can notice, it does seem to aid the city buses considerably to keep moving along. I cannot say anything about the secondary objective.

However, as you say, if the law benefits you, why not avail yourself of it? I virtually never drive during rush hours without at least two children in the car with me on their way to some activity of theirs. Hence, I always get to use the HOV lanes with impunity. B)

[Kevin]

I'm assuming you have a mechanic or dealership that knows how deal with the unique needs a hybrid will present if something does go wrong with it? It's just another finacial consideration that needs to be accounted for with any vehicle I feel.

Where I am at a hybrid is not an option because of that. There would be no one here I could take it to to service it. I have a hard enough time with just getting a regular Honda Civic serviced. :) I simply don't have the time or location to do most of the work myself. The 62B in me just screams at me for taking it in to do some of the work that I have had done on it, but you do what you have to do.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Of course, each car is an individual. But:

Hondas have rated "very good" or better on all makes and models of that are still tracked by CR and others. That gives me some confidence.

The hybrid specific components have an 8/80,000 warranty, which is either a loss leader or a statement of confidence on their part. That adds to the confidence.

There are four of Honda dealers within 32 miles of me. As well as a number of repair shops that deal with Hondas (but maybe not with hybrids). That puts a safety net under the confidence.

Ask me again in ten years or so. If by then I've bought another Hybrid, then it couldn't have been too bad :)

--Pete

[--Pete]

Hi,

The situation here is a bit different. The HOV lanes are mostly on limited access highways. In some cases, they represent 1/3 of the lanes on the road.

While buses do indeed get some benefit, the bus service in greater Seattle doesn't do much good. It is mostly a radial system (to and from downtown) in an area where jobs are scattered all around. When I was working for Boeing in Kent, the bus would have taken me almost three hours per day for a 14 mile (one way) commute. I'd've done a lot better on a bicycle if I wanted to put up with Seattle rain :)

BTW, what's wrong with stringing multiple contractions together in informal writing? That's the way we speak, isn't it?

The main justification for HOV lanes was to reduce traffic (Seattle rating in the top three or so places in every traffic study). Now a good public transportation system would do that, but then the state would have to actually do something -- which Washington is totally incapable of. Instead they made the traffic worse, and encouraged poorer driving habits with HOV lanes.

My own informal measurements taken when I was still commuting was that about 1/3 of the cars in the HOV lanes were "weaseling" (i.e., taking advantage of the fact that Washington police only enforce the speed limits.) Most of the remainder were the day care or soccer moms, neither of which gets a single car off the road. About one car in ten actually had two or more people who actually looked like licensed drivers. And a third of those were construction company trucks.

So, yes, when I can I use them. But HOV lanes seem like a stupid move to me.

--Pete

[--Pete]

Hi,

Officially it's "Shoreline Mist Metallic".

Looks like a sparkly light brown-gray to me, but hey, I can't see :)

--Pete

[Chaerophon]

Well, up here in Vancouver, I'd say that they've been a surprising success. Highway 1 for a stretch from North Vancouver to the Fraser River (approx 50 km.? of very dense traffic, every single day) has an HOV lane, (two or more people on board) and from what I've seen, it has actually done a reasonable job of lessening traffic volume. Of course, traffic is still ridiculous, but that's just urban sprawl for you. However, numerous independent studies in the area have agreed with me. What I find remarkable is the degree to which people obey the rules. It has been extremely rare for me to see anyone 'cheating' in the lane, and I've made the trek about five times per week for the last two years.

[Obi2Kenobi]

The HOV lanes here are the same. Only on some highways. The difference, however, is that they are only one lane, and aren't even always there (careful planning, only putting them in high traffic areas). In addittion, we have an excellent bussing system (RTD, ranked #1 in nation). :) Where I live, HOV are (normally) good.
Of course, I'm not driving yet, but I also plan to get a Hybrid. Toyata Prius was the one I was looking at, but I'm also going to look into Honda eventually.

[LochnarITB]

Magi, a review please?? How are the graphics and the long term playability? :D

I am soon in need of a vehicle and I am very much interested in a hybrid. As I loved my Honda CRX for the entire 13 years of excellent service it gave me, I am a big fan of the brand so it would be difficult for Toyota to swing me their way. I would love to hear the impressions of a real person. The automotive reviewers seem to like it but I tend to relate to them much the same way as movie reviewers, a positive review can be a red flag for me.