Should WoW be a Lurker Game?

[Bolty]

Should World of Warcraft become the Lurker Lounge's third covered game? Here's what is needed:

1) An interested fan base.
2) One or more very dedicated individuals to manage the content of the news/content section.

#1 will be much easier to have than #2. As the beta progresses, we'll get a better idea about whether WoW belongs here at the Lounge. One of the main problems with this game is that, unlike the Diablo games which were code-reviewable, most of WoW's functioning code will be unavailable for study by the code-reading crowd here. Remember that much of the in-depth study of the Diablo series came from the work done by code-readers, such as Jarulf. This element is lost with a MMORPG, and it's an element that may be crucial enough to turn us away from this game.

Yes, the game will be fun to play, and we might all like it very much, but if it can't be analyzed like the Diablo games are here, then I personally don't feel it belongs. This is a strategy site, not a guild site, and we need more than just "community" to adopt this game. The beta will tell us more, and as Blizzard goes, it will be a very long test (months), so there will be plenty of time to decide. Let's sit on this for awhile.

#2 will also take some time to consider. The turnout when I asked for admins to run the Diablo II section was not very strong. If it is equally small for World of Warcraft, I do not see a point in opening a section for it. I especially want to avoid the "three month syndrome" all too common at fansites: someone decides to run one, realizes how much work it is or just loses interest quickly, and quits after just 3 months or less. I do not have the time to manage the content of this site anymore, and those of you who remember the beta days of Diablo II and D2:LoD know how much activity the site received at those times (and how quickly the news was flowing). We need at least one person (preferably more, to lessen the load on any individual admin) capable and willing to take all that on.

If you're thinking of applying for such a position, please wait until the beta has progressed some and you're sure you'd be willing to put in the time and effort to make the Lurker Lounge one of THE top places on the Net to go for strategy and tactics regarding the game. This site was there once for Diablo and Diablo II. It would be great to be back there again, but it will take effort.

Anyway, we should know soon who is in the beta and who is not. The input of any and all Lurkers in the beta would be most helpful.

Thanks,

-Bolty
Webmaster
The Lurker Lounge

[Bido]

I think the Lounge should stay as it is. I enjoy reading the forums on this site, not just because of the topics, but also because there are very few flame wars and rude insults. It's what puts the Lounge above the Blizzard Suggestion Forum and the guild forums. Most of the flamers and immature posters, belong to sites that do not delve into the mechanics and the coding, like the LurkerLounge. If WoW became a part of the LL, the quality of posting might very well degrade a level.

That is not my only concern of course. I might even be wrong, and the forum would continue to be as it is regardless of WoW. But, like Bolty said, the LL is not about the general information, it says so right on the main page. I think that the LurkerLounge should stick with Diablo and Diablo II, and if people really want to discuss WoW, make a sticky topic in the Lounge dedicated to it.

*Opens his wallet and inserts 2 pennies into the slot*

[Guest]

Im not in beta(was working away application week).

I am planning on playing WoW, and looking forward to it more than any game since D2.
But its likely that there wont be enough current lurkers in beta to give the forum a good start.
Its the nasty twist that you need beta players to make make a forum attractive to more beta players.

If you do have ethusiastic, good players posting here, Ill be excitedly following this forum, though. Hope it works.

[DeeBye]

I think that we should wait and see how WoW turns out before jumping the gun. Remember all the hype about Black and White? Yeah, that didn't turn out too well.

Also, just because the code isn't viewable doesn't mean that that the game can't be dissected. It'll just take a little bit longer. It might actually be fun to read the results of someone attacking 1000 enemies with fists and trying to gain statistical data from it. IIRC, this is exactly what people did with Diablo before Jarulf and the rest of the code-readers showed up.

I guess what I'm trying to say is leave this forum up for awhile. If the interest fizzles, dump it.

[channel1]

I would vote "Yes" for a WoW forum, just because it will be interesting to see the Lurker spin on this game.

I say this even though I have no intention of investing any time at all in playing the game. However, I'm sure that quite a few Lurkers will.

I don't think that WoW will warrant more than a single forum here. However, you may want to consider a WC3 forum, while you're at it. Oddly enough, that's another Blizzard game that I never got, other than the free trial version. I might look for it in the Bargain Bin, however, after I get around to buying a second copy of D2.

-rcv-

[Thecla]

Well, I think if you have a large enough base of seriously interested players, dedicated individuals to manage a web site will follow (and maybe even if you don't).

It's true that code-reading will be curtailed in WoW, and with constant server-side updating the game becomes a moving target; but then a lot of investigation went on in the early days of Diablo without code reading, even if the answers were never as definitive. (How many times did Da O'Toth's warrior swing his sword in the Brazilian jungles to figure out to-hit formulas, or whatever it was?)

But who knows if a MMORPG will be as compatible for the LL as Diablo was? I think you should try it out and see how it goes (easy for me to say, of course ;) ). WoW will surely attract a huge audience, for better or worse, and you're absolutely right that the LL being just another community site wouldn't make sense.

[Cybit]

I could help with number two. I know its kinda early, but still. :D

I already work at the Camelot Vault (IGN fansite, main site for Dark Age of Camelot) as their content editor. Granted, things have been slow recently due to the changing of the new expansion (Mythic went on their requisite nerfing/changing spree), making most of my info outdated (I just pulled the entire section and plan on redoing it). At the very least I could help co-ordinate between WoW Vault (I think SLS, who is a basiner and maybe even been on the LL before, is working WoW Vault) and LL.

[Lord_Olf]

Hi there,

I completely agree with you, DeeBye; let's see if some of us Lurkers make it into the Beta (keeping my fingers crossed for you, good luck!) and then consider what they think about the game. For that time, I think it'll be a good idea to keep the WOW Beta forum, and after the Beta is completed, we'll all have a better idea if there should be a forum.

As for me, I'm not planning to get WoW, so no luck looking for an admin here ;-)

Take care,
Lord_Olf

[Guest]

I know SLS pretty well from the vault and DAOC, and he is very involved in the vault sight, which made me wonder.

I know that the lounge and the Basin share a coomon audience.

[Cryptic]

I think a relevant strategy and analysis site for WoW can be run without the gamers having access to the code.

Looking through the D2 forums, I currently see popular threads on:

• Requests for character building advice
• Strategy and tactics dissertations
• Comments on changes between software versions
• Stories of character progress
• Discussion of character names
• Connectivity and system issues
• Bug workarounds
• Bug vs. feature debates
• Colors of equipped gear (!)
• Etc., etc.

Sure, the Workshop aspect of such a site wouldn’t exist, or would be drastically altered; but if a WoW forum could hold the same types of topics already being discussed at length, would it really be that inappropriate to the Lounge?

It’s a Blizzard fantasy RPG, designed around the concepts of evolving content, power leveling, treasure finding, and player interaction; the combination of which presents endless opportunities for discussion, advice, and analysis, as well as the social aspects that result from playing the game. Sounds pretty familiar to me …

[JustAGuy]

Regarding #1:

Fan base shouldn't be a problem. I expect WoW to be Diablo II mixed with War 3 on a very large scale. This appears to be a fansite for role-playing games, Blizzard ones in particular, so trying WoW on for size seems to be mandatory at least. Since there is no source code to read, the very intricate details that were available to us from the likes of Jarulf are not available, but as others have already mentioned, there are others way to acquire this data. The amount of certainty we can obtain from our testing still leaves things up for discussion, and isn't that what a forum is all about? You really don't need to read code to figure out the mechanics of something.

One could argue that the lack of code reading would render the Lurker Lounge on-par with other fan-sites. I disagree with that because of the quality of testers and posters here. Someone can make an unsubstantiated claim on the Blizzard forum, and it can be believed to be correct. Here, you're more likely to encounter a claim that has some merit to it, and if it's provable, it will be proven.

If there's interest, then we should go ahead and cover the game, despite the lack of code reading. The quality individuals here will make the content, and I have faith in their ability (uh, mine too?).

Regarding #2:
Can't help you there. If I get into the beta, I'll be providing lots of information, but my real-life job actually does take up a lot of my time.

[Quark]

One thing we should keep an eye out for: the #1 may be determined to be good enough during beta, but the best options for #2 probably will not show up until after beta. For one thing, the best administrators (whoever they may be) might not get into the beta. For another thing, people have to pay constantly for this game. I know that if this website has a section for the game, I want the administrator to be a currently paying member so that he is always seeing the most recent version of the game. This will weed out alot of possible great administrators simply because they won't pay for the game.

So I think #2 is going to be much harder in this case than it is for the D/D2 sections.

[Bolty]

At the very least I could help co-ordinate between WoW Vault (I think SLS, who is a basiner and maybe even been on the LL before, is working WoW Vault) and LL.

I'm not so sure IGN would want you co-ordinating with a non-IGN site. These conglomerates do desire to make money off of their websites and may not appreciate anything that drives traffic off of their affiliates.

-Bolty

[Mithrandir]

#2 will also take some time to consider. The turnout when I asked for admins to run the Diablo II section was not very strong. If it is equally small for World of Warcraft, I do not see a point in opening a section for it. I especially want to avoid the "three month syndrome" all too common at fansites: someone decides to run one, realizes how much work it is or just loses interest quickly, and quits after just 3 months or less. I do not have the time to manage the content of this site anymore, and those of you who remember the beta days of Diablo II and D2:LoD know how much activity the site received at those times (and how quickly the news was flowing). We need at least one person (preferably more, to lessen the load on any individual admin) capable and willing to take all that on.

From my perspective, people hesitate to jump into an admin role because they just don't know what to expect. My past experience with MMOGs, the impending summer break (even with a job and maybe a single class or two, there will be a dangerous amount of free time :) ), and a general desire to contribute to the community makes me seriously consider applying to one of the admin positions if you do decide go run with WoW... assuming the game is good enough to warrant attention, of course. Unfortunately, I feel as though I'm feeling around in the dark. You've provided a more than adequate amount of information of the required amount of time, responsibilties, etc. of being an admin - it's just that I, and I'm sure many others like me, have just never done anything like this before and it is quite a daunting task. You also have to consider "What if I just can't keep up with the time requirements?", "What if I'm just not a good admin?", and so on. I could care less about failing at something when the only person affected is me, as long as I learn something from the experience. I do care at failing at something when there are other people counting on you to run a highly respected quality website dedicated to a game that people love to play.

A difficult decision, to say the least.

[Cybit]

Well...only if we let them know. :D

Since we're all volunteers as opposed to paid IGN employees, we tend to have a lot more leeway in what we do. A strategy guide, say, I write, can be used by whoever I deem. :D

I could definitely help with the info gathering, as I probably have a good sized crew set up to help me get DAOC data, and all of us are going to move to WoW most likely.

EDIT: Ok, so there are some more common posters between here and Vault then I thought. :D My bad.

[Ferret]

I think some of the other posters raise excellent points in terms of analysis in the absence of code. It is certainly much easier to do detailed investigations if you have the code, but it isn't entirely impossible without it.

Community alone may not be enough to justify a WoW section, but it isn't something to be ignored either. I really enjoyed posting / reading here during the D2X beta (even with the increased amount of trolls that crawled up from the pits).

Still, even as excited as I am about WoW, some words of caution are worth speaking: Lots of people were really excited about SWG, Shadowbane, etc. etc. and we know what happened to them. <_< It probably would be best to take a 'wait and see' approach.

...even with a game that seems to have tons of pet features. :o Go Blankies!

[kandrathe]

Yup, I'd have to play it and think it's worth it before I dedicated any time to it at all.

[bschultz]

I think that even if the beta forum is a bust that we should still have a WoW forum after the game goes live for at least a few months, and if we find that there are alot of people visiting and willing to put forth quality content then we should run with it :) uncertin the future is...

[Baylan]

Hello Bolty!

I haven't posted here in a while, went back into lurk mode for some time. I have seen something in this topic though, that needs to be addressed when it comes to something as drastic as adding a game to the LL's list of "AWESOME AMAZING GAMES!" that Diablo and Diablo 2 have been on for some time now.

The most important aspect of Diablo 2 is most definitely the customizability of characters and the vast number of items that existed and could be used (pre-LoD anyway, after LoD the game began to die anyway, IMO) and it is absolutely critical that with the LL's forte having always been the analysis of the game in terms of statistics, formulas, strategy, and the "seeing how far you can push your limits" aspect of play-styles in terms of variant play due to the spill-over of the DSF and other variant forums.

My experience with MMORPG's (having not read ANYTHING about WoW or its system of play, but having read tons about various other MMORPG's and played EverQuest for some time) is quite simply that not only are numbers near-impossible to find unless released by the development team due to penalties for death and other such restrictions, but that the vast majority of gamers even in communities similar to the LL are not willing to put forth the effort and the time in order to find the numbers.

In terms of strategy EverQuest also had the tendency to maintain an extremely cut and dried DULL form of strategy that was repeated OVER and OVER and OVER at the top end of gameplay, which is where the vast majority of the interesting and fun gameplay is. Without a doubt, if this remains true in WoW the LurkerLounge would barely be able to keep itself afloat.

The principle of things being repeated OVER and OVER and OVER at the top end of gameplay is seen again in equipment. Without the random generator aspect of drops that exists in Diablo 2 MMORPG's grow boring in terms of equipment. There is no "treasure hunting" aspect to the game that made D2 interesting for many, in an attempt to find good equipment to put on that character. It merely takes a lot of time, and a lot of effort to push through and get the equipment that is necessary or desired.

The lack of strategy, character-building, and formulas would eliminate the parts of the LL strategy forums that most of us (I feel) are the most important and critical to the LurkerLounge's survival to this day. Without the dedicated members constantly adding to the pool of information about Diablo and Diablo 2 I'm not entirely sure the community would still exist to the point it does now. The statistics and ideas that were brought out in those strategy forums brought players like myself in, and the community aspect, the high level of discussion and respect for one another is what kept me even after I stopped playing the game some time ago (at least a good 2 years since I've played consistently).

Whatever the LL's decision, I will still be here when its all over. I don't post or even look at any of the strategy forums anymore - just the General Forum because of the fantastic level of discussion that is there. I would however like to avoid the LoD-beta type hype that existed here back then. I don't want to go back to those times, when I first joined the forums, because I remember what it was like. Even though I found the place then, I realize how much better and more peaceful this place is when it is just the regulars posting with a few new guys here and there. The addition of WoW will likely spike traffic in the site, and it is a concern that the quality of post that makes the LL such a fantastic place is indirectly proportional to the amount of traffic the site sees. That, along with what I feel is a lack of content for Lurker's to enjoy in their typical Lurkerish forms is the reason why I don't think that WoW should be the next game for the LL. It is still in alpha however, for the next day or two anyway, and I don't know anything about WoW so I guess I'm not in a real good place to make the decision knowing little to nothing about what WoW's systems are going to be, but I think I know a good bit more about MMORPG's than most of those here do.

In either case, I hope that I've helped your decision as to whether or not to keep this forum when that time comes around...

Baylan

edit: who says I have to be coherent?!

[Bolty]

Baylan,

Wow, you gave a great explanation of what I was thinking. One caveat: yes, when the site gets more popular the signal to noise ratio goes way down. Keep in mind, however, that this is inevitable - the site HAS to go to a third game eventually, and the growing pains will come as they did each time before. But the dust DOES settle, usually within 3 months of release, as the play-it-a-bit-and-move-on folks take off to greener pastures and the die-hards decide to stick around.

-Bolty