Crazy high threat & DPS tanking warrior build

[Jester]

Improved Disciplines doesn't just affect Shield Wall. It also affects Recklessness which, and this may just be a playstyle thing, I use on a regular basis tanking for burst threat. So I include it as a tps increase on the encounters that last long enough for me to be able to use it twice an encounter, one right off the bat and another approximately around execute/kill time.

I have a hard time believing that imp. disciplines is an overall threat increase over imp. revenge, even in the best case scenario where you never need shield wall and you never get in trouble popping recklessness. It might generate burst threat for boss fights, but you can already do it once without imp. disciplines if you really need it.

Edit: Of course, take everything I say with a grain of salt, since I'm the guy who hasn't even bothered to spec into deep wounds yet.

-Jester

[Frag]

I have a hard time believing that imp. disciplines is an overall threat increase over imp. revenge,

Not saying that Imp. Disc is a threat increase over Imp. Revenge, just that Imp. Revenge is a very low tps increase, and Imp. Disc has the potential to be *some* tps increase (even if it's out of your hands).

even in the best case scenario where you never need shield wall and you never get in trouble popping recklessness.

This shows you've never used Recklessness while tanking. It puts Shield Wall on cooldown for as long as the buff could last, or 15s and the +20% damage taken increase only lasts for as long as the buff up (generally 2 GCD's for me, or one swing). Only on Patchwerk25 while OT'ing have I ever regularly died in the first 15s, and I most definitely don't need a TPS increase on him. So, for the sake of argument if I did for some reason need to have an emergency button in the first 15s after popping Recklessness on a boss, I still have access to Last Stand (had to do that on Malygos, once).

Cheers,
~FragB)

[Jester]

This shows you've never used Recklessness while tanking.

Well, no, it actually doesn't show that, but I had forgotten that they pulled recklessness off the same cooldown as shield wall. It doesn't exactly come up often.

In any case, my point stands. You're trading more threat for less threat, increasing your vulnerability, and all you're getting back is a relatively small amount of burst.

-Jester

[Taelas]

Improved Disciplines doesn't just affect Shield Wall. It also affects Recklessness which, and this may just be a playstyle thing, I use on a regular basis tanking for burst threat. So I include it as a tps increase on the encounters that last long enough for me to be able to use it twice an encounter, one right off the bat and another approximately around execute/kill time.

This only works if the encounter lasts more than four minutes but less than five; as soon as it lasts more or less, you've done absolutely nothing with regards to TPS -- if it lasts less than four minutes, you won't get an additional Recklessness anyway, and if it lasts more than five minutes, you'd get the extra Recklessness regardless.

I haven't done the math, but I seriously doubt Recklessness is a threat increase in the first place -- you have to use at least two global cooldowns to perform the trick (Berserker Stance, Recklessness, Defensive Stance), and while Recklessness is active, you take a whopping 20% extra damage. All this for three guaranteed crits? Remember, crits can happen without Recklessness; you're not even guaranteed a threat increase.

(It should be noted that for the duration of Recklessness, Damage Shield will crit as well without using charges.)

You also lose the threat from those abilities you could have spent instead of stance-dancing, however. It is probably a threat increase in most cases despite this, but a very, very marginal one.

As for the Imp. Disc / Shield Wall Glyph thing, 60 to 40% does not make it a non-emergency button, and I would love to have something akin to a DK's cooldowns so maybe I could tank Sarth2D, let alone 3D, without getting blown to pieces. It's also coming in with Dualspecc'ing, so having a pair of complimentary tank specs will allow me to have an both an unglyph'd (w/o Imp. Disc) and glyph'd shield wall (with Imp. Disc).

You're absolutely right -- with dual specs coming out, obviously a 2 minute Shield Wall is very practical (and I should have thought of it). I even intend to have two Protection specs myself. Yes; obviously, I would choose something similar for a full defensive spec. (5/8/58 comes to mind.) I still see no reason to dump Revenge. I'd obviously choose to have both Improved Disciplines and Improved Spell Reflection as well as full Shield Specialization in such a defensive build, and that requires at least 7 extra points from somewhere. I have to take most of those from Arms; dropping Deep Wounds, Impale, and the two other talents aside from Deflection (which are, in the end, only fillers to get to the other two). That means you can get full Cruelty as well as Improved Revenge, better choices than Improved Heroic Strike and Charge/Improved Rend, in my mind.

[Frag]

This only works if the encounter lasts more than four minutes but less than five

Indeed, that's why I said, "Imp. Disc has the potential to be *some* tps increase (even if it's out of your hands)." I realize I'm stretching there, but a 60 tps increase (or approximately 1% under most circumstances for *my prot warrior*) that Imp. Revenge offers doesn't exactly tickle me for 2 talent points:D

you have to use at least two global cooldowns to perform the trick (Berserker Stance, Recklessness, Defensive Stance), and while Recklessness is active, you take a whopping 20% extra damage. All this for three guaranteed crits? Remember, crits can happen without Recklessness; you're not even guaranteed a threat increase.

That depends on how you use it, this is how I do to mitigate those downsides: Beserker stance, Beserker Rage, Recklessness > Autoshot > Defensive Stance > Charge & Heroic Throw (crit) > Melee Swing (likely a crit) & Bloodrage > Melee (likely a crit), Shield Slam (crit) & Concussion Blow (crit). That combined with a TotT gives me some rather huge burst threat. In return, the initial hit from the mob tends to be the only one that's at +20%, and more often than not, I have a PW:S on me which doesn't get broken even with that up. Also, with my wonderful fully raidbuffed crit chance (including talents) of 28.3% (<_<) gives around a 2% chance to crit on everything Recklessness guarantees, that isn't the kind of chances I tend to bank on.

Cheers,
~FragB)