02-07-2006, 08:51 PM
Good stuff on the 1@17 and 2@20 runs and kills vs leveling up.
But on your other comments, disagree on many points.
First point, as far as tackling tough foes: âBlocking's your best bet here.â
Um, disagree completely with you here.
If you rely on AC, you can âslide pastâ a LOT of foes (not BK, but weâll get to that later). If you rely on blocking rather than AC, you are going to slide past NOTHING. And as soon as you activate more than two fast attackers like lava dudes, dogs, snakes, or storm demons, youâll find yourself quickly in blocklock and just as quickly dead.
There are TONS of fast attackers in Caves -- and Hell (even Night Clan goats in Cats are pretty scarey!). And how many dot@level games are you going to be activating multiple opponents without killing them?
Try -- EVER SINGLE ONE of them (except your 3@30 run of course). :)
Suppose two (or more) fast attackers have engaged you and you have started blocking their attacks. The only way out of this mess is to either kill them (not good, you donât want the Exp for normal attackers), walk out of it, or phase/teleport/stonecurse/TK out of it. Well, if you chose either of the latter two options, you NO LONGER CAN BLOCK. (You donât block while walking; you donât block while casting spells.) So, if youâve been relying on your Block and you have poor AC, once you get into a serious blocking situation with two or more fast attackers, youâve pretty much sealed your own Fate. And remember, you ARE Mortal.
But with a high AC, you can, at a cost, get out of even some tense situations. My clevel 10 dot@level mage escaped six lava maws, five Steel Lords, and six Azure Drakes while having 128 AC. It cost about a full belt of blues each time, but he was able to Phase out of it. Had he relied on high dex/ perfect block, there is no way heâd be alive now.
Sure, blocking will help you survive all 1-on-1 and even 2-on-1 encounters with Blood Knights -- but why are you fighting BKs? Why in the world would you want to hang around tackling one of the toughest and most experience-laden foes in the entire game? To get the drops? Killing bosses is MUCH more effective in terms of dangers endured and items drops and experience avoided. (As an aside, I donât think my 1@17 mage killed a single Blood Knight. Not one, ever. Not even on dlevel 16 prior to killing Diablo. My 2@20 Mage killed maybe a half dozen.)
For any dot@level character, high AC or high Dex, here would be my advice on how to handle a level containing Blood Knights:
First, throw up a town portal as if you are going to make a quick escape.
Second, make a quick escape.
Third, make a new game.
Perfect Block won't save you against multiple BKâs. Neither will high AC. You shouldnât engage BKâs at all. Period.
Not convinced of the greater usefullness of high AC versus high Dex for a Dot@Level character?
Try this then:
Play a mage to level 10, getting him some decent stats and mana (around 275 or so), then load him with gear that gets his AC to 120 (the Dex doesnât matter) and slap a Shadowhawk in his hands, and learn how to use the Phasing Spell. Then try to go from Caves 9 through to the Caves entrance to Hell on Caves 12 without killing ANYTHING and without dying. Itâs a challenge, but itâs doable. (Um, youâll of course be using Mana Shield).
Now try the same thing with that same mage but with half the AC and any Dexterity at all youâd like to give him. Try the exact same run.
THATâS why I say you should be trying to up your AC constantly. I did, and my clevel 10 mage was running Caves all the time (after having run through Cats to get there, of course).
Having high Dex and âperfect blockâ gives one a false feeling of security that lasts as long as you are attacked by only one foe at a time. High AC lets to try multiple opponents and gives you a true feel for just how much you can âpushâ on the level, take damage, and still survive and work the level.
And Blocklock with multiple opponents and low AC is a death-knell.
So, on that first point, sorry, I think AC is MUCH more important than Dex for the Mortal Dot@level character.
Point two: âI don't know why you suggested looking for good AC armor in Caves; doing so will just make you level up. â
Bullhockey.
With AC 120 my level 10 mage didnât have to kill ANYTHING in Caves, and I made MULTIPLE trips through it. Here was my mageâs armor progression:
Leather 13 purchased at clevel 1
Butcher drops Wisdomâs Wrap at clevel 7
Valiant(63%) Armor17 drops in Cats when clevel 8
Valiant(65%) RingMail 19 drops in Cats when clevel 8
Glorious(+87%) Breast Plate 20 drops in Caves 9 at clevel 9
Plate 48 of Accuracy +13 drops in Caves 11 at clevel 10, and then one level later in the same game, Glorious(73%) Plate40 of Stars+10 drops on Caves12 at clevel10. (THATâS why I go to Caves. In addition, it _could_ have been up to a GOTHIC Plate dropping on Caves 12 -- mine was just regular Plate though.)
There are plenty of those corrals in Caves that have magic items appearing inside them, and sometimes the magical item is armor. TK it and ID it and use it if you can -- it stands the chance of being better than ANYTHING Griswold can sell you for your entire 1@17 trial.
So, on point #2, the deeper you go, the better quality armor can drop. Since you wonât be turning 17 and entering Hell a lot prior to your 1@17 (because at clevel 17 youâd immediately be DOING your 1@17 run) youâll be running Caves a LOT from clevel 13(or earlier) to clevel 16, hoping for a nice armor drop. (Caves also drops significantly nicer jewelry than all prior levels too. And Swifty bows can drop there if you are a playing a Rogue.)
Point Three: âGiven the roughness of your other rules (no deaths, soloing even outside of dot runs), this emphasis replaying weak levels for free stat shrines and stealth gear seems rather cheesy.â
Um, being Mortal makes the game really tough; the cheese factor barely enters into the equation when youâre just trying to stay alive. Plus, if you donât want to play in whatever way you consider cheesy, you donât _have_ to play that way.
You donât wanna do it, then just donât do it.
But in looking at your comment, you donât think playing multi- rather than solo dot@level is cheesy? I can see SO many ways of exploiting that situation. Pair a mage and rogue, get the rogueâs Dex to perfect block, whip out the fast block shield you bought earlier, and then have the rogue hold doors/gates ad nauseum while the mage stone curses and kills bosses from a safe position. Or do the same with a Warrior/Rogue combo, with the warrior getting dex to perfect block while the Rogue buys a nice killer bow (can you say elemental damage?) and picks off foes/bosses. Just how disparate can the two player's levels be? Could one player go to Hell, throw up a TP, and the other then join him in Hell even if his clevel wouldnât normally allow it? And then the other player enjoy the spoils of Hell? (Remember, youâd get no exp for Stone Cursing, so a Mage would have a field day, grab great loot, and get no exp at all!)
Pee-yuh! You claim to catch the smell of cheese in my comments; you DO recognize it in your own?
Anyway, after playing a Mortal dot@level character, playing them as immortal smacks of cheese in and of itself. What challenge is there if one can continually re-animate oneself? -- then itâs just a matter of time, equipment, and stair placement -- a person would just have to master the tedium rather than master the tactics. Where is the accomplishment in that?
So on the third point: eh, cheese is where you choose to say you smell it.
*****
I stand by my statement that AC is the most important thing a Mortal Dot@Level character can get. Dex/blocking is secondary. Dex/blocking is for surviving a fight while killing opponents in that fight. High AC is about running around/away from and avoiding fights altogether (because you arenât supposed to be killing things, youâll level up too soon!) The latter is MUCH more important than the former for a Mortal Dot@Level character. It may be harder to do, but it is more important.
So, just how hard IS it to get a decent AC?
If you play conservatively and shop a bit, you can get decent AC for even your 1@17 run.
As a level 16 character, Griswold will (eventually) offer to sell you:
Glorious Splint -- could have AC range 50-66
Glorious Crown -- could have AC range 13-22
Glorious Kite Shield -- could have AC range 13-28
And even a lowly mage has starting Dex 25, making for 5 more AC.
Adding this together you could get then a total of AC 81 to 121, and thatâs without including rings(esp RoEâs), amulets, and your characters own Dexterity that you added to when he leveled -- because OF COURSE you are going to add to the characterâs Dexterity. The Warrior will have 60 Dex and the Rogue probably over 100! (The Mage, well . . . )
With AC 120 you can pretty much walk/Phase through Normal Caves (and thus, enter Hell) -- while drinking -- with even a clevel 10 character. How do I know? Because I did it. Multiple times. Dozens and dozens of times. With a level 9 and then a level 10 Mage. (Just beware them Maelstorms!)
With AC 130 and a CR, you can begin doing multiple Normal Laz runs, depending upon the foe mix -- again, been there, done that. (Maelstorms and BK are still a no-no; Steel Lords and Azure Drakes and Lava Maws are âproceed with extreme cautionâ.)
For the clevel 17-19 character, Iâd recommend multiple Normal Hell runs, going to 15 and looking for armor racks that could have saintly/awesome plates. More of same for clevel 20-29, along with Normal diff Laz runs for SS, RC, Gott, and jewelries.
For the clevel 30 character (making his 3@30 run), the point is moot -- stone âem all and kill em all.
But on your other comments, disagree on many points.
First point, as far as tackling tough foes: âBlocking's your best bet here.â
Um, disagree completely with you here.
If you rely on AC, you can âslide pastâ a LOT of foes (not BK, but weâll get to that later). If you rely on blocking rather than AC, you are going to slide past NOTHING. And as soon as you activate more than two fast attackers like lava dudes, dogs, snakes, or storm demons, youâll find yourself quickly in blocklock and just as quickly dead.
There are TONS of fast attackers in Caves -- and Hell (even Night Clan goats in Cats are pretty scarey!). And how many dot@level games are you going to be activating multiple opponents without killing them?
Try -- EVER SINGLE ONE of them (except your 3@30 run of course). :)
Suppose two (or more) fast attackers have engaged you and you have started blocking their attacks. The only way out of this mess is to either kill them (not good, you donât want the Exp for normal attackers), walk out of it, or phase/teleport/stonecurse/TK out of it. Well, if you chose either of the latter two options, you NO LONGER CAN BLOCK. (You donât block while walking; you donât block while casting spells.) So, if youâve been relying on your Block and you have poor AC, once you get into a serious blocking situation with two or more fast attackers, youâve pretty much sealed your own Fate. And remember, you ARE Mortal.
But with a high AC, you can, at a cost, get out of even some tense situations. My clevel 10 dot@level mage escaped six lava maws, five Steel Lords, and six Azure Drakes while having 128 AC. It cost about a full belt of blues each time, but he was able to Phase out of it. Had he relied on high dex/ perfect block, there is no way heâd be alive now.
Sure, blocking will help you survive all 1-on-1 and even 2-on-1 encounters with Blood Knights -- but why are you fighting BKs? Why in the world would you want to hang around tackling one of the toughest and most experience-laden foes in the entire game? To get the drops? Killing bosses is MUCH more effective in terms of dangers endured and items drops and experience avoided. (As an aside, I donât think my 1@17 mage killed a single Blood Knight. Not one, ever. Not even on dlevel 16 prior to killing Diablo. My 2@20 Mage killed maybe a half dozen.)
For any dot@level character, high AC or high Dex, here would be my advice on how to handle a level containing Blood Knights:
First, throw up a town portal as if you are going to make a quick escape.
Second, make a quick escape.
Third, make a new game.
Perfect Block won't save you against multiple BKâs. Neither will high AC. You shouldnât engage BKâs at all. Period.
Not convinced of the greater usefullness of high AC versus high Dex for a Dot@Level character?
Try this then:
Play a mage to level 10, getting him some decent stats and mana (around 275 or so), then load him with gear that gets his AC to 120 (the Dex doesnât matter) and slap a Shadowhawk in his hands, and learn how to use the Phasing Spell. Then try to go from Caves 9 through to the Caves entrance to Hell on Caves 12 without killing ANYTHING and without dying. Itâs a challenge, but itâs doable. (Um, youâll of course be using Mana Shield).
Now try the same thing with that same mage but with half the AC and any Dexterity at all youâd like to give him. Try the exact same run.
THATâS why I say you should be trying to up your AC constantly. I did, and my clevel 10 mage was running Caves all the time (after having run through Cats to get there, of course).
Having high Dex and âperfect blockâ gives one a false feeling of security that lasts as long as you are attacked by only one foe at a time. High AC lets to try multiple opponents and gives you a true feel for just how much you can âpushâ on the level, take damage, and still survive and work the level.
And Blocklock with multiple opponents and low AC is a death-knell.
So, on that first point, sorry, I think AC is MUCH more important than Dex for the Mortal Dot@level character.
Point two: âI don't know why you suggested looking for good AC armor in Caves; doing so will just make you level up. â
Bullhockey.
With AC 120 my level 10 mage didnât have to kill ANYTHING in Caves, and I made MULTIPLE trips through it. Here was my mageâs armor progression:
Leather 13 purchased at clevel 1
Butcher drops Wisdomâs Wrap at clevel 7
Valiant(63%) Armor17 drops in Cats when clevel 8
Valiant(65%) RingMail 19 drops in Cats when clevel 8
Glorious(+87%) Breast Plate 20 drops in Caves 9 at clevel 9
Plate 48 of Accuracy +13 drops in Caves 11 at clevel 10, and then one level later in the same game, Glorious(73%) Plate40 of Stars+10 drops on Caves12 at clevel10. (THATâS why I go to Caves. In addition, it _could_ have been up to a GOTHIC Plate dropping on Caves 12 -- mine was just regular Plate though.)
There are plenty of those corrals in Caves that have magic items appearing inside them, and sometimes the magical item is armor. TK it and ID it and use it if you can -- it stands the chance of being better than ANYTHING Griswold can sell you for your entire 1@17 trial.
So, on point #2, the deeper you go, the better quality armor can drop. Since you wonât be turning 17 and entering Hell a lot prior to your 1@17 (because at clevel 17 youâd immediately be DOING your 1@17 run) youâll be running Caves a LOT from clevel 13(or earlier) to clevel 16, hoping for a nice armor drop. (Caves also drops significantly nicer jewelry than all prior levels too. And Swifty bows can drop there if you are a playing a Rogue.)
Point Three: âGiven the roughness of your other rules (no deaths, soloing even outside of dot runs), this emphasis replaying weak levels for free stat shrines and stealth gear seems rather cheesy.â
Um, being Mortal makes the game really tough; the cheese factor barely enters into the equation when youâre just trying to stay alive. Plus, if you donât want to play in whatever way you consider cheesy, you donât _have_ to play that way.
You donât wanna do it, then just donât do it.
But in looking at your comment, you donât think playing multi- rather than solo dot@level is cheesy? I can see SO many ways of exploiting that situation. Pair a mage and rogue, get the rogueâs Dex to perfect block, whip out the fast block shield you bought earlier, and then have the rogue hold doors/gates ad nauseum while the mage stone curses and kills bosses from a safe position. Or do the same with a Warrior/Rogue combo, with the warrior getting dex to perfect block while the Rogue buys a nice killer bow (can you say elemental damage?) and picks off foes/bosses. Just how disparate can the two player's levels be? Could one player go to Hell, throw up a TP, and the other then join him in Hell even if his clevel wouldnât normally allow it? And then the other player enjoy the spoils of Hell? (Remember, youâd get no exp for Stone Cursing, so a Mage would have a field day, grab great loot, and get no exp at all!)
Pee-yuh! You claim to catch the smell of cheese in my comments; you DO recognize it in your own?
Anyway, after playing a Mortal dot@level character, playing them as immortal smacks of cheese in and of itself. What challenge is there if one can continually re-animate oneself? -- then itâs just a matter of time, equipment, and stair placement -- a person would just have to master the tedium rather than master the tactics. Where is the accomplishment in that?
So on the third point: eh, cheese is where you choose to say you smell it.
*****
I stand by my statement that AC is the most important thing a Mortal Dot@Level character can get. Dex/blocking is secondary. Dex/blocking is for surviving a fight while killing opponents in that fight. High AC is about running around/away from and avoiding fights altogether (because you arenât supposed to be killing things, youâll level up too soon!) The latter is MUCH more important than the former for a Mortal Dot@Level character. It may be harder to do, but it is more important.
So, just how hard IS it to get a decent AC?
If you play conservatively and shop a bit, you can get decent AC for even your 1@17 run.
As a level 16 character, Griswold will (eventually) offer to sell you:
Glorious Splint -- could have AC range 50-66
Glorious Crown -- could have AC range 13-22
Glorious Kite Shield -- could have AC range 13-28
And even a lowly mage has starting Dex 25, making for 5 more AC.
Adding this together you could get then a total of AC 81 to 121, and thatâs without including rings(esp RoEâs), amulets, and your characters own Dexterity that you added to when he leveled -- because OF COURSE you are going to add to the characterâs Dexterity. The Warrior will have 60 Dex and the Rogue probably over 100! (The Mage, well . . . )
With AC 120 you can pretty much walk/Phase through Normal Caves (and thus, enter Hell) -- while drinking -- with even a clevel 10 character. How do I know? Because I did it. Multiple times. Dozens and dozens of times. With a level 9 and then a level 10 Mage. (Just beware them Maelstorms!)
With AC 130 and a CR, you can begin doing multiple Normal Laz runs, depending upon the foe mix -- again, been there, done that. (Maelstorms and BK are still a no-no; Steel Lords and Azure Drakes and Lava Maws are âproceed with extreme cautionâ.)
For the clevel 17-19 character, Iâd recommend multiple Normal Hell runs, going to 15 and looking for armor racks that could have saintly/awesome plates. More of same for clevel 20-29, along with Normal diff Laz runs for SS, RC, Gott, and jewelries.
For the clevel 30 character (making his 3@30 run), the point is moot -- stone âem all and kill em all.