Gay Marriage

[Chaerophon]

Hmmmm... I had prepared a big long reply to your post, but I don't think that I'll put it up. Your point is well-made.

This is true enough:

Fine. But realize that that is, for this argument, an *assumption* and not a conclusion. You use that (as you should) as a springboard to argue for a certain treatment of humanity. But that starts where my point ends. My point was that you need to examine why you subscribe to such a belief. To do so, you need to examine those that did not subscribe to your belief (Cicero comes to mind with his instrumentum vocalae). You need to examine why for most of six thousand years of recorded history slavery, caste systems, sexual discrimination, etc. etc, were the *unquestioned* norm. Once you understand *why* most of humanity did not share your viewpoint and why you do, then you are on the path of knowledge and independent thinking.

I am *not* saying that your assumption is wrong (for I hold one very similar -- and don't feel like going further afield by arguing the differences), but simply that your assumption is, at as far as this thread goes, unexamined.

Anyways, I think that I misinterpreted your initial post a tad. There is some merit to your Hobbesian realism, and I mistook your relativism as a moral justification for those acts that were once considered 'just' when in fact you were merely pointing out that that was the way that it was.

However...

...the concept of "inherent entitlement" is what makes the modern liberalism a bad joke. Mankind has no rights other than those that they are willing to fight for. Just because overeducated idiots were handed these 'rights' on a platter by those who bled for them does not mean that these 'rights' are 'entitlements'. The modern liberal is an immature brat who is not thankful for his toys because he did nothing to earn them and has never considered their price. He exercises his sovereignty by the good graces of those who earned it for him and returns the favor by denigrating their sacrifice.

A bee in your bonnet perhaps? ;) Perhaps you stray a bit far in your own generalization?

Anyways, point well taken, and I welcome hearing your own "assumptions" some time in the future.