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Conquest creates comprehensive Molten Core Guide
02-09-2005, 10:33 PM
Post: #1
Conquest creates comprehensive Molten Core Guide
I'm not particularly interested in the drama surrounding Conquest and their suspension, but they have posted a very interesting guide detailing virtually every encounter in Molten Core. It is complete with strategies, screenshots, video, and the UI modifications they use for individual monsters. You may consider it a spoiler, but if you have any interest in raiding it's worth a read.

http://conquest.teamgbu.com/strats/moltencore/why.php
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02-09-2005, 11:34 PM
Post: #2
Conquest creates comprehensive Molten Core Guide
Boutros,Feb 9 2005, 06:33 PM Wrote:I'm not particularly interested in the drama surrounding Conquest and their suspension, but they have posted a very interesting guide detailing virtually every encounter in Molten Core. It is complete with strategies, screenshots, video, and the UI modifications they use for individual monsters. You may consider it a spoiler, but if you have any interest in raiding it's worth a read.

http://conquest.teamgbu.com/strats/moltencore/why.php
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I suppose that counts as a spoiler, but the amount of tactics involved is too fun. If there's endgame PvE content that requires this amount of coordination, to the point of a mod, I'm impressed and a bit scared.

As to the drama of the suspension, don't know about it, and I'm glad they don't let it sink too much into this guide except at the footnote and teh guide purpose.

Men fear death, as children fear to go in the dark; and as that natural fear in children, is increased with tales, so is the other.

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02-10-2005, 05:30 AM
Post: #3
Conquest creates comprehensive Molten Core Guide
Explanation of what (that I know) went down:

One night they used LoS bugs to split a linked boss group. So instead of 3 monsters in a boss fight, it was only 1. Some members even admitted to this. Blizzard warned everyone in that raid to stop exploiting.

The next night, they pulled a (pretty ingenious) trick with a Warlock / Rogue combo. Rogue snuck all the way through, aggro'd a boss (and his linked members). Warlock summoned the Rogue, so the boss group starts running all the way back, grabbing adds along the way. But the adds were slower than the boss group, so a Vanish or death once the boss group reaches removes the aggro from all other adds, so they skipped the entire content of MC to just grab the boss. Blizzard then despawned the instance about half an hour into the fight, and suspended accounts that had been present during both nights.

They only did the 2nd thing after the entire instance had bugged out, causing a reset. That excuse didn't fly with Blizzard, though. The fact they explained both exploits in detail on the forums shows they've done it. I don't see how posting logs from the times they've legitametely run through MC exonerates them from the times they haven't.

Everyone who got in trouble cried out "no fair" because they were warned for one exploit, then suspended for another. Then CQ tries to save its face with stuff like it's "proof" guide.

Trade yourself in for the perfect one. No one needs to know that you feel you've been ruined!
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02-10-2005, 05:55 AM
Post: #4
Conquest creates comprehensive Molten Core Guide
Quark,Feb 9 2005, 10:30 PM Wrote:Explanation of what (that I know) went down:

One night they used LoS bugs to split a linked boss group.  So instead of 3 monsters in a boss fight, it was only 1.  Some members even admitted to this.  Blizzard warned everyone in that raid to stop exploiting.

The next night, they pulled a (pretty ingenious) trick with a Warlock / Rogue combo.  Rogue snuck all the way through, aggro'd a boss (and his linked members).  Warlock summoned the Rogue, so the boss group starts running all the way back, grabbing adds along the way.  But the adds were slower than the boss group, so a Vanish or death once the boss group reaches removes the aggro from all other adds, so they skipped the entire content of MC to just grab the boss.  Blizzard then despawned the instance about half an hour into the fight, and suspended accounts that had been present during both nights.

They only did the 2nd thing after the entire instance had bugged out, causing a reset.  That excuse didn't fly with Blizzard, though.  The fact they explained both exploits in detail on the forums shows they've done it.  I don't see how posting logs from the times they've legitametely run through MC exonerates them from the times they haven't.

Everyone who got in trouble cried out "no fair" because they were warned for one exploit, then suspended for another.  Then CQ tries to save its face with stuff like it's "proof" guide.
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The rebuttal I saw was more like:

They split mobs with the hunter traps, like has been posted on the official forums many times and to this day no official comment has been made to my knowledge on whether it is an exploit or not.

That the rogue pull:
1) Came with the 2 hounds that are part of the boss pull
2) happened after the raid had moved through the zone to the boss, but they added some members as some had to leave or something to that extent.

To me, the second is a marginal exploit if they indeed fought the boss with the adds. I actually consider it pretty genious tactics. If they had actually played through the content earlier that night, but moved back to a 'safe zone' to pick up some fresh members as they claim they had done, then I would consider it the equivalent of dropping down to the viewing room after a wipe in scholomance.

It's too hard for any of us to judge if the decision was correct or not as none of us were there or know who is right. So far I think Blizzard has been pretty heavy handed on this kind of thing. I wasn't farming Doan, but making a drop from a boss that high 30s will be playing worth 9 silver if sold to an NPC? Making fishing almost completely useless? It wouldn't surprise me if Blizzard put down the hammer too swiftly. At the same time, it would not surprise me if Conquest actually did significantly exploit.

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02-10-2005, 09:43 AM
Post: #5
Conquest creates comprehensive Molten Core Guide
Concillian,Feb 10 2005, 12:55 AM Wrote:To me, the second is a marginal exploit if they indeed fought the boss with the adds.  I actually consider it pretty genious tactics.  If they had actually played through the content earlier that night, but moved back to a 'safe zone' to pick up some fresh members as they claim they had done, then I would consider it the equivalent of dropping down to the viewing room after a wipe in scholomance. 
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It absolutely isn't the same thing. After you wipe in Scholomance, you can drop down to the viewing room because the viewing room is clear. It's clear because you were there and cleared it.

Pulling the boss across the whole zone via rogue summon can be done right from the start. Just because Conquest claims to have done it after clearing the way to him doesn't make it okay. I even believe them when they say they basically earned their way to the boss, and got it taken away by a bug.

The fact remains that a group which hadn't cleared the way to the boss could do the exact same thing and pull the boss across the whole zone and zap him in the entryway. Blizzard has to formulate a policy, and "extenuating circumstances" are hard to fit into corporate policy. They have to make actions wrong, and this is one that virtually demanded it.
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02-10-2005, 01:50 PM
Post: #6
Conquest creates comprehensive Molten Core Guide
Concillian,Feb 10 2005, 12:55 AM Wrote:So far I think Blizzard has been pretty heavy handed on this kind of thing.  I wasn't farming Doan, but making a drop from a boss that high 30s will be playing worth 9 silver if sold to an NPC?  Making fishing almost completely useless?  It wouldn't surprise me if Blizzard put down the hammer too swiftly.
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Problem is, Blizzard has to bring the hammer down harshly, and swiftly. If they don't the economy can be ruined. Ruined economies never get fixed. It's much quicker and safer for Blizzard to overkill something immediately, and then look at it later for possibly making it better again.

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02-10-2005, 08:38 PM
Post: #7
Conquest creates comprehensive Molten Core Guide
Quark,Feb 10 2005, 06:50 AM Wrote:Problem is, Blizzard has to bring the hammer down harshly, and swiftly.  If they don't the economy can be ruined.  Ruined economies never get fixed.  It's much quicker and safer for Blizzard to overkill something immediately, and then look at it later for possibly making it better again.
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But think about the trend that this encourages.

People exploited fishing for gold
Blizzard nerfed fishing into oblivion, so that fish sell for well below what it should be on average.
People exploited Doan for gold
Blizzard nerfed the sale of his drops into oblivion, well below what they should sell for given what similar level mobs drop.
People farmed Ashzara for feathers for gold
Blizzard nerfed the sell price of feathers into oblivion, well below what they should sell for given what similar level mobs drop AND they increased mob HP and armor.
People farmed Venture Co. in STV for lanterns for gold
Blizzard nerfed the sell price of these lanterns into oblivion, well below what they should sell for given what similar level mobs drop.

So what's next. What is the next thing that is farmed and it's price gets nerfed to hell? All actions like that do are ENCOURAGE exploiting while you can, because those exploiters are going to be the only ones with money.

By nerfing values so severely they exacerbate the problem... they accelerate the demise of the economy. I'm all for quick fixes, when those fixes address the root cause. But as an engineer I see too many times when someone implements a solution that does not address the real issue. It's great for job security, but it sucks to clean up after.

Blizzard has been very quick to implement fixes for issues like this, but they do not address the root of the issue. All they do is encourage someone to go out and farm the next best thing until that one gets nerfed.

If Blizzard had changed the prices into something remotely close to parity with what you get off of similar mobs, I would agree with you, but they have not. They have gone overboard.

It is this tendency that Blizzard has shown to be overzealous on these things that are what brings a shadow of doubt to my mind. If I had not experienced the first few months of WoW, I would 100% say Conquest cheezed and deserved it. But given what has happened, I cannot trust that Blizzard made the correct decision. At the same time, of course I cannot trust a group of powergamers to have not exploited.

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02-11-2005, 03:19 PM
Post: #8
Conquest creates comprehensive Molten Core Guide
Concillian,Feb 10 2005, 08:38 PM Wrote:But given what has happened, I cannot trust that Blizzard made the correct decision.  At the same time, of course I cannot trust a group of powergamers to have not exploited.
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Wow, this is quite a statement, actually. You just really showed how polarizing this issue is. You have people that will do nothing short to use any bug, exploit or advantage to gain items/power/fame and on the other side you have the people making the game attempting to make it fair and balanced for everyone. It's essentially a war of ethics and so far Blizzard is making sure they have the advantage.

Blizzard has been extremely conservative in every aspect of economy design. Look at the item system--the epics dropped by the mobs in the highest dungeon (Molten Core) are only a few percentage points better than set items dropped in regular level 60 instances. There are no real items that are completely better than everything else.

Blizzard even acknowledged this and have already said they are going to beef up stuff like set items. Right now the class sets aren't really that great (have you looked at the Rogue shadowcraft boots? That's just plain broken).

I think they've taken a conservative approach to everying related to economy in this game. From item abilities, costs, incoming from mobs, etc. It's easier to make things better and more powerful than to nerf them later. Of course, they missed a few. The feathers dropped by the Hippogriffs in Azshara were actually items used in a quest to teleport up to see the Archmage there--they just messed up and made their resale value too high.

/// Zoid.
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02-12-2005, 10:37 PM
Post: #9
Conquest creates comprehensive Molten Core Guide
Zoid,Feb 11 2005, 11:19 AM Wrote:Wow, this is quite a statement, actually.  You just really showed how polarizing this issue is.  You have people that will do nothing short to use any bug, exploit or advantage to gain items/power/fame and on the other side you have the people making the game attempting to make it fair and balanced for everyone.  It's essentially a war of ethics and so far Blizzard is making sure they have the advantage.

Blizzard has been extremely conservative in every aspect of economy design.  Look at the item system--the epics dropped by the mobs in the highest dungeon (Molten Core) are only a few percentage points better than set items dropped in regular level 60 instances.  There are no real items that are completely better than everything else.

Blizzard even acknowledged this and have already said they are going to beef up stuff like set items.  Right now the class sets aren't really that great (have you looked at the Rogue shadowcraft boots?  That's just plain broken).

I think they've taken a conservative approach to everying related to economy in this game.  From item abilities, costs, incoming from mobs, etc.  It's easier to make things better and more powerful than to nerf them later.  Of course, they missed a few.  The feathers dropped by the Hippogriffs in Azshara were actually items used in a quest to teleport up to see the Archmage there--they just messed up and made their resale value too high.
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I think in many regards a conservative approach to the design in an MMO isn't a bad thing. In fact, far from bad, I largely like many of the effects. I'm currently elated that there are no unbalancing l33t itAmz a la D2 that are necessary for the endgame. This makes the world accessable to the casual gamer, and also makes skill play a further role as it becomes the stratifying factor when gear fails to seperate the wheat of the player base from the chaff.

That all said... there have been some very hard, hard reactions. Fisihing, in its current state, is utterly without value, except for leveling cooking, for a hunter's pet, or for Oily Blackfish, which I'm pretty sure have something to do with alchemy materials. Sure, some uses, but I can say that for me, as a warrior, it has been a waste of time, other than leveling cooking, which was a marginally useful endeavor.

As far as nerfing the economy... bah. They're a bit zealous about it, but as long as tehy go back and fix the places where they overcompensated, I'll be happy. For all that they've made it hard to make some mone,y this is nowhere near as awful as Final Fantasy 11's system, where it was nearly impossible to ever make a buck.

As far as the summon rogue pull... banning people for that strikes me as bad form. Really, I think it would be much simpler to, say, make it so that it was impossible to accept a summon while you were in combat. That tactic seems like an exploit that needs a fix, but I've yet to see anything worthy of labeling them a lot of powergamers. There are a whole number of exploits that need fixes at the moment.

Men fear death, as children fear to go in the dark; and as that natural fear in children, is increased with tales, so is the other.

"Of Death" Sir Francis Bacon
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