What issues do you think are most important

[whyBish]

For me personally:
- Immigration rules. I'm forced to be a NZ citizen because of where my parents gave birth...
- Foreign relations. It seems these have been strained recently, mainly with the U.S. actions in Iraq. The U.S. giving NZ a cold shoulder in the Free Trade deal means that we are leaping into the arms of the ASEAN and various South American countries... although <rant>I can understand wanting to keep high quality or cheaper products away from your own citizens when those goods are produced by a nation that isn't trigger happy or allow Nuclear warships into it's ports</rant>
- finding someone to keep me company :P

[Ashock]

Nothing, which you already know, Brother A.&nbsp;

I am hoping to avert a urinating contest here.&nbsp; Yes, me, who has been in plenty of them here recently.&nbsp; "Occhi with the mop, to the lounge.&nbsp; Occhi, with the mop please."

Occhi
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Ahh, but see I've been away for so long, that leaving a urine sample here and a urine smaple there doesn't really bother me ;)



-A

[Ashkael]

Yep, that's it. So, what's the problem with this point of view?
-A
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That’s precisely the kind of comment that has earned Americans their fame of short-sightened imbeciles who don’t realize that there’s life outside their country limits. Don’t you think that if the people in other countries really thought that America sucks, then you wouldn’t be having this huge immigration problem which, by the way, has gotten to the point where they are issuing 1-year-only visas to students? People are dying to get into this country because they realize how much their own countries suck in comparison; they have better opportunities here (just compare the American minimum wage to the Latin minimum wage).

It’s not that people think that America sucks, it’s just that they think that its population is stupid.

[Ashock]

That’s precisely the kind of comment that has earned Americans their fame of short-sightened imbeciles who don’t realize that there’s life outside their country limits. Don’t you think that if the people in other countries really thought that America sucks, then you wouldn’t be having this huge immigration problem which, by the way, has gotten to the point where they are issuing 1-year-only visas to students? People are dying to get into this country because they realize how much their own countries suck in comparison; they have better opportunities here (just compare the American minimum wage to the Latin minimum wage).

It’s not that people think that America sucks, it’s just that they think that its population is stupid.
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It took you 18 hours to come up with that brilliancy?

So, in your own Einstein-like mind, how do you figure that the US has been able to accomlish all that it has, if it's population were stupid?

Tell me something Socrates, do you see or read many sources that indicate to you, that Americans think that people from other countries are stupid? I sure haven't, at least I haven't seen any since 3 months ago when I learned how to read. BTW, in the future try to at least mask your anti-american mindset. Usually it's not a good idea to be belligerent with the people that comprise the majority of the population wherever you happen to be at, like a forum. Just because you live in the US, does not mean that you can't be anti-american. Oh and yes, I did look up the meaning of the word belligerent just this morning. See, I'm trying to increase my vocabulary, so I can be as erudite as an average European and almost on par with an average Middle-Easterner. I do have a long way to go, since I'm just an uneducated and stupid American goober, but hopefully one day, at least my kids will be on par with yours, who you I'm sure are or will be raising to be as open minded and educated as the kids outside the US. On that glorious day, maybe the world will open up it's UN sponsored hands and accept them into it's world-wide community.

Until that day, I bid you poshel nahui. That means "a humble farewell" in Swahili.



-A

[Freepaperclips]

Fourthly?&nbsp; Undo the damage of the tower of Babel, and get language to quit being the divisive force that it is in the world.&nbsp; Esparanto, anyone?&nbsp; :whistling:
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Wow, I don't think I've ever heard someone argue for esparanto before.

[Minionman]

Guys, cool it.

[Occhidiangela]

Wow, I don't think I've ever heard someone argue for esparanto before.
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I was hoping that the whistling smiley would indicate my real feelings about Esparanto, since of course English should be the international language, right?

*ducks as the great unwashed hurl things from far and wide*

Occhi

[Count Duckula]

I was hoping that the whistling smiley would indicate my real feelings about Esparanto, since of course English should be the international language, right?

*ducks as the great unwashed hurl things from far and wide*
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*chucks a stapler*

Unshowered and unchanged--does this mean I qualify? :o

Bleah. I propose that all people be bilingual, at least spoken. Written, debatable.

[Occhidiangela]

*chucks a stapler*

Unshowered and unchanged--does this mean I qualify?&nbsp; :o

Bleah. I propose that all people be bilingual, at least spoken. Written, debatable.
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Ah, but which two? <_<

Occhi

[kandrathe]

Ah, but which two?&nbsp; <_<

Occhi
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Based on popularity of language I would guess, Chinese, Spanish, and English.

[Munkay]

Revive Ancient Greek!

At least then people would be forced to have a greater appreciation for grammar, forced to carry around a dictionary with them, and forced into losing the will to live. :P

Cheers,

Munk

[Munkay]

Bleah. I propose that all people be bilingual, at least spoken. Written, debatable.
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I would actually argue the opposite personally. A professor of mine always spoke on the good fortune of western philosophers writing in German, due to the flexibility of the language.

Granted I don't speak a word of German, and have an extremely limited understanding of the grammar. So maybe that professor wasn't right in that assumption.

But I do know Ancient Greek works very well for expression of ideas in written form. We've been reading Plato and the New Testament in my class, and its amazing. I think more people would have a respect for the bible if they had an understanding of Ancient Greek. Put simply, the new testament is absolutely beautiful.

A close friend of mine is the son of two Mexican immigrants, and was raised bilingual. He orders his buritto's in Spanish at the local taqueria, and occaisionally eavesdrops on conversation. Other than communicating with his bilingual parents, he rarely uses it. At least in comparison to his use of reading Spanish. He reads massive volumes of Spanish poetry, and is adament that there are many more beautiful Spanish poets than English.

Your mileage may vary, and it certainly will. I do not mean to debase the importance of spoken language, nor the importance of being bilingual. By the time I enter grad school I'll [hopefully] have 6 years of German under my belt (Thanks to intensive German courses over the summers), 6 years of Ancient Greek, 2 years of modern Greek, and 2 years of Spanish.

Cheers,

Munk

[Chaerophon]

So, in your own Einstein-like mind, how do you figure that the US has been able to accomlish all that it has

First of all, I'm not of the opinion that Americans are, in general, 'stupider' than are the people of any other nation.

But, as a counter to what is implied by the rest of your posts in this thread, I'll clear up the above. A few contributing factors were: abundant access to resources. High population. Distance from military attack. British market as a source for early development. Inherited heritage of merfcantilist/capitalist development strategies. Not because they are inherently 'smarter'. They may be comparatively 'smart' now, when compared to less developed countries, as a result of the infrastructural developments facilitated by factors such as these.

Of course, I've just given you an opportunity to yap some more. I'd hate to have to make you look foolish again, but, have at 'er if you will.

EDITED: too 'absolute' in tone. Addressed as per criticisms. Plenty of room for other factors; however, inherent 'smarts' is not one of them.

[Count Duckula]

Ah, but which two?&nbsp; <_<
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I'd leave it up to the individual, to be honest.

One language cannot define or even combine the entire planet and it's arrogant to think that it's possible or even feasible. I'm sad that English has become the official language of business and science even though it isn't the most widely spoken language on Earth. (It's #2-#5, depending on where I look.) Every culture has their own way of interpreting the universe. Force a standard on that interpretation and culture stagnates as a result.

(Fluent in English, familiar with Japanese and Latin, passing knowledge of Yiddish, Hebrew, and Italian, and can curse a blue streak in a dozen others. ^_^ Though nothing expresses your frustrations quite like English in a Southern dialect...)

[whyBish]

Based on popularity of language I would guess, Chinese, Spanish, and English.
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I'd vote for Chinese, it's a lot more logical than Spanish or English :)

[whyBish]

First of all, I'm not agreeing with Ashkael that Americans are, in general, 'stupider' than are the people of any other nation.

1 ) I must have misread, I thought Ashkael was just claiming that it was the *preception*, not the reality.

2 ) I'd consider the large connected land mass to be the most important factor (which was sparsely populated until 'recent' history)

3 ) I'm morbidly curious about how Ashok will respond to your 'foolish' comment, do you stick your hand in the mouths of Rottweilers for a living, by chance?

[Occhidiangela]

First of all, I'm not agreeing with Ashkael that Americans are, in general, 'stupider' than are the people of any other nation.

But, as a counter to what is implied by the rest of your posts in this thread, I'll clear up the above.&nbsp; The answer is: abundant access to resources.&nbsp; High population.&nbsp; Distance from military attack.&nbsp; British market as a source for early development.&nbsp; Inherited heritage of merfcantilist/capitalist development strategies.&nbsp; Not because they are inherently 'smarter'.&nbsp; They may be comparatively 'smart' now, when compared to less developed countries, as a result of the infrastructural developments facilitated by factors such as these.

Of course, I've just given you an opportunity to yap some more.&nbsp; I'd hate to have to make you look foolish again, but, have at 'er if you will.
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Cherry picking is a dangerous habit, Chaerphon. Chaerry picking? :blink: .

Consider as well energy, and a system that allowed a middle class to thrive, and a connection to GLOBAL trade since colonial days. I'd venture to say the linkage to the British trade system is too narrow, and Meade would probably agree. (Well, I agree with him, he's published. :lol: )

Energy: both available in material form and within the citizenry. The room to expand was key, I will agree, on preventing more wars than there were from continually setting back social progress. Population pressure thus did not work its dirty deeds on this side of the pond the way it did "in old country," as my uncle Kosta used to call it.

The American work ethic, industriousness, was one of the real strengths of this nation for a couple of centuries. There has been a perception of that characertistic having been watered down, funnily enough, since about the era of emphasizing diversity and mediocrity. That substrand could take us into some strange directions, since some immigrant cliques, for example the Korean and Viet Namese, have taken base "line American industriousness" and 'raised it one.' ;) If our local Bulgarian friend, Stanko, is any example, I'd venture to say any number of the recent Eastern Bloc immigrants have done similarly.

If you look at how fast the Japanese industrialized after the 1850's, and how the Germans progressed in leaps and bounds ahead of their peers in the industrial revolution, the "cultural work ethic" theme is not to be discounted.

Which makes one wonder how much more untapped potential China has, if it can hang together.

Occhi

[Chaerophon]

1 ) I must have misread, I thought Ashkael was just claiming that it was the *preception*, not the reality.

2 ) I'd consider the large connected land mass to be the most important factor (which was sparsely populated until 'recent' history)

3 ) I'm morbidly curious about how Ashok will respond to your 'foolish' comment, do you stick your hand in the mouths of Rottweilers for a living, by chance?
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1.) OK, I guess. However, I think that he made quite clear how he feels, whether it ultimately sounded like a compliment or not.

2.) I wouldn't. Another factor to add, maybe, but not a necessity for development. See Britain, Japan, Germany (to an obvious lesser extent) for reference. I wasn't about to write the definitive book; rather, I thought I would contribute some major factors as a counter to Ashock's ignorant point. The West was, in the early stages of American development, largely a non-factor. The East established itself industrially around the major cities with port access in a fashion reminiscent of 'city-states'. Success was the result of rural-urban interaction around these major centers and, ultimately, the development of self-sufficient domestic markets for domestic industrial produce.

3.) He shows that he can barely articulate himself on a regular basis. I'm not concerned. All of my points stand. If you or anyone else want to add some, fair enough. His point, re: somehow America has 'smarts' going for it while the rest of the world does not, remains completely invalid.

[Chaerophon]

Cherry picking is a dangerous habit, Chaerphon.&nbsp; Chaerry picking?&nbsp; :blink: .&nbsp;

Perhaps. Exams breed brevity in LurkerLounge responses. I think my points are sufficient to counter his ignorance.

If you look at how fast the Japanese industrialized after the 1850's, and how the Germans progressed in leaps and bounds ahead of their peers in the industrial revolution, the "cultural work ethic" theme is not to be discounted.

Hmmmm... the working culture of Germany and Japan are very different from that of America. Comparing the three may be dangerous - I think that some very different 'ethics' were at work in all three cases. German and Japanese notions of work developed quite differently from those in Britain and the States and we see the results today in their corporatist industrial structures.

In Britain, it was factory owners who modified existing notions of work, and not some inherent 'work ethic' that led to industrial relations of production. The transitional period of industrial development is well documented as being one in which workers needed to be 'molded' into industrial notions of time and work. Thus, my next point...

The American work ethic, industriousness, was one of the real strengths of this nation for a couple of centuries. There has been a perception of that characertistic having been watered down, funnily enough, since about the era of emphasizing diversity and mediocrity.

The vaunted 'American work ethic' is, I would argue, of British inheritance. Moreover, I'm not sure that the 'work ethic' would amount to a lick of good or, in fact, exist at all, if the other factors mentioned were not present. Industrial notions of time management are not required nor, I would venture, possible in countries without a hope of development, dependent or otherwise. 'Work ethic' in this sense seems to me to be largely a product of the development of industrial capacity. With industrial relations of production come industrial notions of time management and 'work'. For confirmation, see Pentland, Polanyi, or Pollard.

In other words, Burma's problem is not 'laziness', nor is it inherent stupidity.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Thomas Jefferson put his finger on it over 200 years ago and it hasn't changed since: education. An educated world population wouldn't *allow* most of the problems we have at the present. And if such problems did arise, it would find solutions that did not come from the barrel of a gun.

--Pete