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the outcome of the election
11-03-2004, 11:18 AM
Post: #1
the outcome of the election
Hi,

Seeing that the lounge doesn't have exactly such a thread yet, I thought it was time to start one. We could have all discussion over the result of the vote at this neat place.

As time goes by, George W. Bush seems to emerge victorious from this presidential election. Indeed about 250000 provisional ballots must still be counted, but John Kerry needs a major trend reversal to preserve his chances.
(see http://www.cnn.com)

My question to all that voted for Bush would be:

Why did you vote for him? What reasons influenced your decision? I'm really interested. Here in Europe (more precisely: Germany), most of us can hardly comprehend that choice. Please let us not turn this into flame bait, and try to restrict yourself to a short statement of 5 to 10 lines.

I'm not cagey about my own opinion: I would have chosen Kerry. Likewise would have 2/3 - 3/4 of all Europeans, as surveys show.

Thanks, Fragbait

Quote:You cannot pass... I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. The Dark Flame will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go back to the shadow. You shall not pass.
- Gandalf, speaking to the Balrog

Quote:Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow, or it can crash! Be water, my friend...
- Bruce Lee

Quote: There's an old Internet adage which simply states that the first person to resort to personal attacks in an online argument is the loser. Don't be one.
- excerpt from the forum rules

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11-03-2004, 11:51 AM
Post: #2
the outcome of the election
Fragbait,Nov 3 2004, 11:18 AM Wrote:Hi,

Seeing that the lounge doesn't have exactly such a thread yet, I thought it was time to start one. We could have all discussion over the result of the vote at this neat place.

As time goes by, George W. Bush seems to emerge victorious from this presidential election. Indeed about 250000 provisional ballots must still be counted, but John Kerry needs a major trend reversal to preserve his chances.
(see http://www.cnn.com)

My question to all that voted for Bush would be:

Why did you vote for him? What reasons influenced your decision? I'm really interested. Here in Europe (more precisely: Germany), most of us can hardly comprehend that choice. Please let us not turn this into flame bait, and try to restrict yourself to a short statement of 5 to 10 lines.

I'm not cagey about my own opinion: I would have chosen Kerry. Likewise would have 2/3 - 3/4 of all Europeans, as surveys show.

Thanks, Fragbait
[right][snapback]59026[/snapback][/right]

Same for me. I would probably vote for the green candidate but mainly against Bush.

I think (because you also see that here, (NL)) that the religious right influence outcome ussually very much. These people are often only interested in a candidate that is against abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage etc. For these people the rest is less important, and they will never think about voting democrat even if the candidate would promise to give them a 50,000 dollar christmas bonus. Voting against a certain candidate just because he is religious does not happen often. This difference would for sure account for several % of the voters.
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11-03-2004, 12:06 PM
Post: #3
the outcome of the election
eppie,Nov 3 2004, 06:51 AM Wrote:Same for me. I would probably vote for the green candidate but mainly against Bush.

I think (because you also see that here, (NL)) that the religious right influence outcome ussually very much.  These people are often only interested in a candidate that is against abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage etc.
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For example, the catholic church hasn't been nearly as forceful in previous elections as this one. This time they clearly sanctioned a republican vote in propigated literature and said that voting otherwise was unambigiously sinful. Some people have reportedly been denied sacraments over their political preferences. This despite the Pope's opposition to the war in Iraq.
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11-03-2004, 12:42 PM
Post: #4
the outcome of the election
There was a survey here a couple of weeks back. Evidently, about 90% of our population would have voted for Bush, had they been given a chance.

Still there is a lot of anti-American "racism" festering in several European countries with a varying degree of logic behind it. When asking a Norwegian Kerry-supporter what's so bad about Bush, you'd be lucky to get any answer that's not superficial and clearly ignorant.

I am one of the ignorant. I am no American, so I can't know what it's like to be in the position of having to choose between these two candidates. That being said, based on what I've read, heard and seen of the campaigning candidates, Kerry strikes me as the one I feel I have more in common with.

I keep hearing these horror stories that Bush is against abortion, gay marriages and euthanasia. One of these is enough to make me cringe. All three are more than enough to convince me that *anyone* besides Bush deserves the seat in the White House for the next four years. Then there's the Iraq-thing. Whether or not he's lying his ass off, Kerry admits to being more open to international collaboration, which I'm all for.

Even though I had hoped Kerry would become your next president, I had my sincere doubts of it ever happening. Additionally, by giving Bush another four years, he gets the chance to continue and hopefully end his work in Iraq. History books will not be given the chance of describing him as a man of vision who was cut of in the middle of cleaning up the Middle East, by being replaced by his opponent. I sincerely hope Bush will do what his advertisements claim he will: Make the world a more peaceful place.

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11-03-2004, 01:39 PM
Post: #5
the outcome of the election
[wcip]Angel,Nov 3 2004, Wrote:I sincerely hope Bush will do what his advertisements claim he will: Make the world a more peaceful place.

One can only hope. However, with the republican party winning not only the presidency but also the house and the senate, the stage is now perfectly set for Bush to press on with his conservative agenda. It will be interesting to see to how great an extent the Bush administration will cooperate with the political opposition. If anything it's going to be Bush's desire to make a place for himself in history (now that he can no longer get re-elected) that will inspire him to reach out to others, even on the international level, which is what he will need to do to fulfill his promise of peace.

I too, like many other Europeans, would have chosen Kerry if given the chance. It seems that many Bush supporters (at least in my country, where there aren't too many of them btw) made their decision based on the war in Iraq or the war on terrorism in general, whereas Kerry supporters weigh a whole variety of issues (including terrorism, but also health care, the economy, etc).


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11-03-2004, 02:03 PM
Post: #6
the outcome of the election
[wcip]Angel,Nov 3 2004, Wrote:There was a survey here a couple of weeks back. Evidently, about 90% of our population would have voted for Bush, had they been given a chance.
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Hi,

I cannot affirm that. Do you know which survey? Here's a link for you: bbc news on european survey

Greetings, Fragbait

Quote:You cannot pass... I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. The Dark Flame will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go back to the shadow. You shall not pass.
- Gandalf, speaking to the Balrog

Quote:Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow, or it can crash! Be water, my friend...
- Bruce Lee

Quote: There's an old Internet adage which simply states that the first person to resort to personal attacks in an online argument is the loser. Don't be one.
- excerpt from the forum rules

Post content property of Fragbait (member of the lurkerlounge). Do not (hesitate to) quote without permission.
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11-03-2004, 02:21 PM
Post: #7
the outcome of the election
Fragbait,Nov 3 2004, 02:03 PM Wrote:Hi,

I cannot affirm that. Do you know which survey? Here's a link for you: bbc news on european survey

Greetings, Fragbait
[right][snapback]59034[/snapback][/right]

It also seems rather strange to me, in the rest of western europe (and most of the world) it was the other way around.
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11-03-2004, 02:24 PM
Post: #8
the outcome of the election
Im happy. I like Bush more than Kerry.


-I think Bush is more honest and direct, which I like.
-I think Kerry has too high of an opinion of the UN
-I prefer Bushes extremist Pro-Life stance to Kerrys extremist Pro-Choice stance(I personally fall in the middle).
-Based on his past votes I think Kerry would like to take away my AR-15
-Bush may not be the smartest, but I think he better realizes the gravity of the "War on Terror".
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11-03-2004, 02:28 PM
Post: #9
the outcome of the election
I voted for Bush because I don't trust Kerry. Anyone willing to put a personal-injury lawyer in a position to become President is nobody I want running my country (although I suppose he's better than said lawyer).

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11-03-2004, 03:09 PM
Post: #10
the outcome of the election
"-I prefer Bushes extremist Pro-Life stance to Kerrys extremist Pro-Choice stance(I personally fall in the middle)."

What part of Kerry's pro-choice stance is extremist? Especially considering he's a catholic, and personally opposes the notion (although not as a matter of policy)?

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11-03-2004, 03:27 PM
Post: #11
the outcome of the election
I voted for Kerry.

I'm tired of the global community hating America.

I'm tired of the obvious connections between oil, our government, and the Iraq War, and any other Al Queda/Saud/Middle Eastern connections you care to make.

I want the next two Supreme Court justices to be fair and levelheaded people, not some anti-gay and anti-abortion cronies Bush might stick in there.

I'm tired of tax breaks for the stupefyingly wealthy.

And, quite frankly, I want a guy in charge who doesn't have Karl Rove's or Dick Cheney's hand up his ass making the puppet move and talk.

Of course, being pro-gay, pro-adoption, and pro-UN may have something to do with it.

UPDATE: Spamblaster.
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11-03-2004, 03:36 PM
Post: #12
the outcome of the election
Policy is all that matters I could care less about his "personal" veiw on anything.


Myself I think late term abortions are equivelent to infantacide and I find them abhorrant. I dont see them as a "choice" issue but rather as a murder issue.

On the other hand I dont know about early term abortions. I dont like them, but I certainly wont tell an expectant mother she did something amoral if she had an abortion right after learning she was pregnet. I dont know whats right or wrong there so I dont tell people what to do in that case.(And I have no idea where to exactly "draw the line" on fetus age)


Both sides in the abortion issue will disagree with me, but I think the average American is probably pretty close to my position.
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11-03-2004, 03:46 PM
Post: #13
the outcome of the election
Well, I voted for the Libertarian, but...

I live in a very Republican neighborhood, and the primary concern for these people is promoting a just and moral society. This was traditionally a strong Farmer-Labor State, but in recent times there are fewer farmers, and less industrial. So, now as a State, we are trending toward the other things that are important. I think those core issues are raising children, promoting business growth, providing adequate funding for schools and health care.

What message did they read from Kerry;
- He would raise taxes on households who earn more than 200K
- He would pull out of Iraq (before the end of his first term).
- He would promote and depend on multilateralism in international relations.
- He would penalize international businesses that move operations abroad.
- He would reintroduce the failed Clinton government run health care system.
- He would treat terrorism as a law enforcement problem.
- He is more in favor of hardening targets at home than fighting terrorism abroad.
- And on the all important moral issues, he sides strongly with the progressives.

In the neighborhood where I live, the people here do not look to Washington to solve all their problems. Most are comfortable with paying higher taxes, because we take care of our own problems and would prefer that the Federal government stay out of our local affairs. What they do expect is that the federal goverment fulfills its mandate to provide for the common defense.

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11-03-2004, 03:53 PM
Post: #14
the outcome of the election
Fragbait,Nov 3 2004, 04:18 AM Wrote:My question to all that voted for Bush would be:

Why did you vote for him? What reasons influenced your decision? I'm really interested. Here in Europe (more precisely: Germany), most of us can hardly comprehend that choice. Please let us not turn this into flame bait, and try to restrict yourself to a short statement of 5 to 10 lines.

Here is a short summary of why I voted for Bush
1) Raising taxes when the economy is still recovering is a bad idea.
2) At the age of four months (when late-term abortion takes place), the fetus has a nervous system and can feel pain. This is not acceptable to me.
3) I have the feeling that if I was to go on a tiger hunt with these two men, Kerry would try to talk to the tiger, whereas Bush would shoot himself in the foot. On the whole, I would rather have the man who would at least try to shoot the tiger be in charge.
4) Bush stands by his decicions. Kerry so far has seemed to want to blame everything on somebody else, without taking personal responsibility.

I hope that helps.

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11-03-2004, 04:04 PM
Post: #15
the outcome of the election
Nice - "I have the feeling that if I was to go on a tiger hunt with these two men, Kerry would try to talk to the tiger, whereas Bush would shoot himself in the foot. On the whole, I would rather have the man who would at least try to shoot the tiger be in charge."


Thats an an analogy I agree with.
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11-03-2004, 04:27 PM
Post: #16
the outcome of the election
-Bush is usually straight forward while Kerry often is evasive.
-Bush has done what Democrats have been claiming they will do for decades IE: appoint minorities and women to important positions.
-The few times I have said "Whaaaaaa....?" with Bush it has been things that could never get done anyway.
-Kerry is not strong with the military, which I find to be very important with a huge amount of troops in combat.
-To quote Bush from one of the "debates" much of Kerry's Plan for America is "not credible". The only part of that I had some confidence on him really going for is a balanced budget since that is something his record supports.
-Points where Bush was weak were too anti-Democrat position for him to touch, AKA illegal immigration. Personally I am far more worred about the people who cross our borders than the shipping containers.
-It's kind of cliché but Kerry struck me as a phony. Though it (obviously) wasn't the intention, it was actually reinforced by a documentary done by Nancy Poloci's daughter where she followed the different cantidates through the primarys and slightly after.
-It's been 3 years and the best OBL has been able to pull off in America is send us video tapes to prove he isn't bomb fodder.

Well, now it's time for the "I told you so". Kerry was too liberal, didn't take states from Bush, and didn't get elected. Should have gone for Lieberman! :P
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11-03-2004, 04:38 PM
Post: #17
the outcome of the election
Ghostiger,Nov 3 2004, 09:24 AM Wrote:-I prefer Bushes extremist Pro-Life stance to Kerrys extremist Pro-Choice stance(I personally fall in the middle).
-Based on his past votes I think Kerry would like to take away my AR-15

[right][snapback]59037[/snapback][/right]

Odd, isn't it, where we all draw our different lines on different personal freedoms?

You would rather have no abortions than allow late-term abortions, because you view them as murder. Therefore, since some people would use them to murder, you would rather have no one allowed to have them.

I would cheerfully take away your right to own an AR-15*, because they are designed solely for killing( i.e. murdering) other people. Maybe you wouldn't, but surely some would, so I would rather no civilian had access to them.

Human beings are just full of contradictions, aren't we?



*Assuming this is what you meant by your AR-15.

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When civility survives,
But I've had dinner with the Devil and
I know nice from right.

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11-03-2004, 04:42 PM
Post: #18
the outcome of the election
I think you are right Ghostinger. How I form my opinion on abortion is simple. Look at fetuses at different stages of develpment and say "Would I be okay with someone shoving this in the garbage disposal?" Sadly many abortions take place when resonable people would be horrifed to see such a thing.
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11-03-2004, 04:48 PM
Post: #19
the outcome of the election
Thats why we vote.

Although I must mention your analogy is flawed, I specifically dont want any later term abortions because I am against later term abortions themselves. My position is directly agaiinst the element I want to prevent, I am simply infifferent to early term abortion.
You on the other hand are against my AR-15 because because it might kill someone.

All the above positions are reasonable. But they are not analogous.

These are matters of opinion in the end. Fortunetly for me, more people agree with me than you.
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11-03-2004, 04:53 PM
Post: #20
the outcome of the election
I, for one, can say I have never been more ashamed to be an American citizen than I am this morning. But the majority must rule, however divided the country is. We need a leader.

What depresses me more than anything is that immediately after 9/11, we had the sympathy of the world behind us. Now, just about every nation in the world hates us. Not me personally – I have lots of friends and business contacts around the world that tell me they like me, they like my country, but they hate my country’s leadership. And after the Iraq debacle, who can blame them?

The solace that I have is that Bush now has 4 more years to deepen his own grave. The Democratic party of 2008 is going to have a majestic platform to lobby from. I don’t agree with everything they tout, and I don’t vote along party lines – I was a Republican for my entire life, as recently as early 2002. But I do know a corrupt, inept, corporate-owned leader when I see one. Kerry would have made a mediocre president, I believe. But I am absolutely certain that Bush’s presidency is the most inept I’ve seen in my lifetime since the end of the Carter era, and it exceeds that debacle on many fronts.
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