So I broke down today....

[FoxBat]

I can see by the reaction of so many players that this Inferno concept as a playground for pro gamers doesn't work.

Path of Exile devs posted a recent blog about some things they've been foisting on their beta testers for endgame:

Action RPGs typically have three difficulty levels. The player plays through the game several times using the same character, with the challenge ramping up each time. Right back at the start of the project, we thought it would be a great idea to add a fourth difficulty level that was really challenging so that players would have something to aim to beat.

When we tested this, we found that players reacted really badly to a sudden brick wall of difficult content that they were unable to progress in. We tried changing it to a steady ramp of difficulty, but then players found isolated areas where the monster AI was more abusable and farmed those with specific builds to get rewards with little risk.

http://www.pathofexile.com/news/2012-06-...diary-maps

Sounds awfully familiar doesn't it?

Both PoE and TL2 seem to be shooting on a multiplayer variant on the infinite dungeon idea. Basically players can choose from a variety of "maps" of varying difficulty which portal you to levels the same old tilesets, but are completely divorced from the game story.

In substance I'm not sure it's that different, but how you present things has a big effect on how most players will perceive the game. For some reason I'm expecting Blizzard will take some of these lessons to heart as they get further into developing the first expansion.

[ViralSpiral]

There was a game that I can't properly recall the name of which was the predecessor of Torchlight and Mythos, but had similar elements - you had a pet, fishing, et cetera. But it also had an infinite dungeon. I remember reading tales of "deep divers" who were on level two million something (admittedly having gotten down there via skipping levels through console commands, but they had the stats to survive) which featured some ridiculously large numbers. Or the Disgaea series would be another example - Blizzard could pretty easily piece together a storyless random dungeon generator and a 999 level cap if they wanted.

[Bolty]

Isn't this what Torchlight 1 did? It's a great game mechanic in general.

The infinite dungeon side-"event" gives you the best of both worlds:

1) It's optional - has nothing to do with the "plot" of the game so it feels entirely optional, compared to Diablo III's method of another difficulty tacked onto the base game that feels semi-compulsory.

2) It's epeen-oriented: how deep can you go? Make it skill based, not gear based, so the gear that drops there is the same power as what you can find in the base game (although maybe more of it, just to keep it interesting).

3) It can be progressively more difficult as you go - with each level having monsters that are 1% stronger than the previous level or something. Instead of having a huge brick wall of difficulty like D3's Inferno.

4) As you clear a level, you gain the ability to warp back to it from then on, saving your progress. There will always be that lure to see if you can clear "just one more level."

I don't know, it appeals to me, but maybe not to many others. After all, you can never ever "win" the game this way. There will always be another level to try. However, you can "win" Diablo III, and some people like that.

[Kevin]

I don't know, it appeals to me, but maybe not to many others. After all, you can never ever "win" the game this way. There will always be another level to try. However, you can "win" Diablo III, and some people like that.

As one of those people that likes the idea that I can "win" Diablo III, an infinite dungeon still appeals to me because like you said, if done right it will feel like an extra, and won't be something I have to "win". It would have been a great idea. Each level you portal into of course and since you are portaling the levels don't have to be "dungeons" they can be anything. Call it the infinite dimensions if you like, so you can use all the terrain templates that have been developed and you just end up popping into one from the portal after you clear the last one. So you don't feel like you are just slogging through a dungeon. Of course that might not appeal either, maybe it should just be level after level of underground environments.

[ViralSpiral]

Actually I'd prefer an infinite wilderness. For one, it makes more sense - both from the standpoint that someone building an infinite dungeon is unlikely, and because wandering the wilderness forever and refusing to retire seems like a heroic thing to do. For two, I think the outdoor environments look better.

[ErickTheRed]

Isn't this what Torchlight 1 did? It's a great game mechanic in general.

The infinite dungeon side-"event" gives you the best of both worlds:

Torchlight's infinite dungeon didn't work well for me. I found it too bland, so I played it for a while, then got distracted by another game and felt no motivation to come back. I wanted to like it so I tried again later and found the same thing.

This proposal seems even worse. Diablo's overall story leaves something to be desired, but I like the pacing and atmosphere through the individual acts. If instead all I was doing was going through random bonus instances something would be lost.

In theory I like the idea of a skill challenge. I see two problems. One is that as difficulty ramps up, the gameplay becomes distorted. The extreme example is demon hunters giving up on defense completely. Balancing the skills around this difficulty would likely lead to imbalances at lower difficulties. My other concern is that I've put enough hours into the game to the point where my skill level only increases slowly. Since the other part of the premise is that you don't get better gear from these runs, what would I do when I hit the limit? I'd need to keep playing at that level to get better, but if I'm a little annoyed that I've had to change my skills from what I find the most fun, going through bland content, and not getting better gear, I'm pretty sure I would quickly move along since half of why I play would be missing.

[Nystul]

I don't know, it appeals to me, but maybe not to many others. After all, you can never ever "win" the game this way. There will always be another level to try. However, you can "win" Diablo III, and some people like that.

Ideally it would be something extra that wouldn't interfere with other people's ability to enjoy the core of the game. And ideally you could have a PVP arena that wouldn't screw up the character balance in the core of the game. I can see all kinds of ways to screw these things up and just make people rage that much more. But clearly the approach with Inferno had some flaws.

It's fascinating to me with this new wave of games because the player base is so diverse and extremely demanding. You can't please them all even under the best of circumstances. And the genre has some cool things going but also some very stale cliches and sacred cows. I wouldn't want to be the PR guy.

[Zombie]

Actually I'd prefer an infinite wilderness. For one, it makes more sense - both from the standpoint that someone building an infinite dungeon is unlikely, and because wandering the wilderness forever and refusing to retire seems like a heroic thing to do. For two, I think the outdoor environments look better.

I prefer an infinite wilderness as well. It would be great to explore the world post Diablo eradication. There would still be a lot to do.

[Archon_Wing]

As, I've explained before, "The Game ends at hell" does not work. And just staring at the AH is proof.

1.) The Auction House is the of the most notable features of Diablo 3 and is integral to itemization and getting stronger.
2.) Once you reach level 60, there is no way to get stronger but get better items.
3.) The Drop rates suck
4.) Unlike Diablo 2, all characters of a class are identical besides gear differences. Once again this focuses the game on gear
5. The actual story content is pretty damned short, especially act 4, so even that will get boring.
6.) You can only have 10 character slots, so even if you replay the game, you can only do so much without deleting a character you invested time in.
7.) Items found in hell are largely worthless. You cannot easily trade between other hell players, because to them they will just move on, and as time goes along and more players progress into inferno, sub-60 items will not be worth the space they take up on the Auction House. You might make 100k from a lucky drop once in a while, but overall you simply will not be able to peddle your wares for more than a pittance.
8.) This leads to a situation where a hell only player must grind for gold at very slow rates or try to gain items that nobody will want anyways.
9.) I'd rather have 3 challenging but balanced difficulties. There's only 2 good difficulties in this game. Normal is piss easy. Nightmare should have been normal. Hell is the really only good difficulty along with nightmare.

Basically, "the game ends on hell" really can only exist if you use your imagination. In a game about shiny gear, and comparing that shiny gear, you must enter inferno or the game is incomplete. If you want to pvp, well... lol@ trying to get it from Hell Mode. If you wish to push the casual gamer argument, then I think "The game ends on normal" has more validity.

For the majority of people, Diablo needs to be balanced towards the endgame. It's a game about shiny prizes, and considering the journey to it isn't as interesting due to the lack of character customization and a short story mode, inferno is where the replay value will be at.

It's basically like having a game where you claim the last real mode is a certain difficulty, but you only get pennies and the occasional dollar as rewards, while the bonus mode is where all the millions of dollars are. It doesn't feel right at all.

[Roland]

Wierd. My Demon Hunter has a 750 DPS Hand Crossbow and about 1.1K Dex, but has almost 16K DPS. Does not feel enough for Act II, however; I feel I need around 20K.

Try 30k.

[Elric of Grans]

Eww... Roland, stop scaring me! I have no idea how I would possibly get that much. If 20K is not enough, then there is no way I would bother continuing in Inferno.

[Lissa]

Wierd. My Demon Hunter has a 750 DPS Hand Crossbow and about 1.1K Dex, but has almost 16K DPS. Does not feel enough for Act II, however; I feel I need around 20K.

Try 30k.

Still not enough. It's still pretty steep going from Act 2 to Act 3 in inferno.

[BellaStrega]

There was a game that I can't properly recall the name of which was the predecessor of Torchlight and Mythos, but had similar elements - you had a pet, fishing, et cetera. But it also had an infinite dungeon. I remember reading tales of "deep divers" who were on level two million something (admittedly having gotten down there via skipping levels through console commands, but they had the stats to survive) which featured some ridiculously large numbers.

I believe you're referring to Fate. A couple of people who worked on that also worked on Torchlight, and I think on Mythos.

[ViralSpiral]

Yes, Fate. And yes, almost exact same team as Mythos and largely the same team as TL.

[FireIceTalon]

It's really hard to believe they nerfed Act 2 onward, it still feels retarded to me. I suppose damage is somewhat less spikey, but not much, and more importantly, the monsters health is still stupidly high. Also, maybe it's just me, but it seems like the monsters abuse their traits more in Inferno than lower difficulties. I ran into an elite sand wasp pack that had shielding, extra health, frozen, and fast. They would just pretty much chain cast frozen on me so I could almost never move, and when I COULD mobilize and kite, their extra health and shielding made it impossible for me to make any kind of a dent in them, so I just left to avoid the absurd repair costs. I really dont think it was nerfed enough, not even close really. All my items (except 1 ring) are ilvl 61 minimum, most are 62, and yet it still is not enough. Granted, I have only 18K DPS, but just the fact that is way too low with the items I have is proof that Inferno is really a broken system. I dont know, but I'm beginning to tire of Blizz's philosophy of "monsters over powered, player under powered". That has not what Diablo has ever been about, nor should it be. They need to go back to the drawing board, take notes from the Blizz North team, and re-think their entire philosophy if you ask me. I give props to people who made it through Act 2 and beyond though, you guys must have the patience of a doctor. But for most people, the brick wall that is Inferno is enough to turn them into patients of a doctor.

[Lissa]

It's really hard to believe they nerfed Act 2 onward, it still feels retarded to me. I suppose damage is somewhat less spikey, but not much, and more importantly, the monsters health is still stupidly high. Also, maybe it's just me, but it seems like the monsters abuse their traits more in Inferno than lower difficulties. I ran into an elite sand wasp pack that had shielding, extra health, frozen, and fast. They would just pretty much chain cast frozen on me so I could almost never move, and when I COULD mobilize and kite, their extra health and shielding made it impossible for me to make any kind of a dent in them, so I just left to avoid the absurd repair costs. I really dont think it was nerfed enough, not even close really. All my items (except 1 ring) are ilvl 61 minimum, most are 62, and yet it still is not enough. Granted, I have only 18K DPS, but just the fact that is way too low with the items I have is proof that Inferno is really a broken system. I dont know, but I'm beginning to tire of Blizz's philosophy of "monsters over powered, player under powered". That has not what Diablo has ever been about, nor should it be. They need to go back to the drawing board, take notes from the Blizz North team, and re-think their entire philosophy if you ask me. I give props to people who made it through Act 2 and beyond though, you guys must have the patience of a doctor. But for most people, the brick wall that is Inferno is enough to turn them into patients of a doctor.

Act 2 has been nerfed, it was a lot worse before 1.03. The problem was, then when they nerfed Act 2 onwards, they also nerfed IAS which hurt a lot of people. The fact that they also instituted a bug with IAS on non-weapons and haven't been willing to fix it is another issue as well (I got lucky and got an Andariel's Visage with Dex prior to 1.03 and now, if I can find a replace, I'm looking at potential selling it because the IAS is broken on it and there's no traction from Blizzard on when it's going to be fixed, if ever).

[MongoJerry]

I'm looking at potential selling it because the IAS is broken on it and there's no traction from Blizzard on when it's going to be fixed, if ever).

They said a week ago that the IAS on current items will be fixed in 1.0.4.

[FireIceTalon]

Great. That means half my Wiz's gear will be obsolete since I will have to start farming and/or buying items with attack speed again. Luckily my jewelry probably needs upgrading anyways, but now I may have to consider using a diff weapon (and I just bought a REALLY nice ilvl 63 one, but it doesnt have attack speed bonus because I saw little point in having it with the IAS nerf). Of course the question is, why in the hell did they nerf attack speed to begin with?? Patch 1.03 was almost pointless really. What good does nerfing Inferno do if you also nerf an important aspect of players ability to do damage AND increase repair costs? You could argue that Inferno was nerfed more than the players were, but overall the patch was a disappointment because it falls short of what many people were expecting - myself included. The fact the players were nerfed at all cancels out any good nerfing Inferno might have done, it defeats the purpose. Friggin Blizz.....they need to get it right already.

[Archon_Wing]

That's one of the biggest pitfalls of the RMAH. Your items could just effectively become worthless overnight.

And yes, they really have to stop nerfing. It's not fun. Buff the players and the content somewhat less if needed. Both can get stronger. Both getting weaker just makes the game lame. :/ You can't nerf the content and then nerf players by so much and expect people to like it.

[FireIceTalon]

Blizz likes to punish the players for playing the game. Every little tactic that players find to help them progress, Blizz says "nope, thats an exploit!! You cant do that!!!". Nerfed. Very very annoying. I can understand things like bots and hacks being prevented, nobody likes cheaters (except other cheaters), but for Blizz to constantly force what THEY think is fun on the players isn't right either. Just let us play already, and stop castrating us everytime we find something useful that helps us progress. It's already bad enough that the design philosophy is based around cheesy mechanics that remove control away from the player, along with the insane repair costs, enrage timers and an annoying auto-hit system because Blizz thinks dodging attacks is un-fun (even though its really the opposite, being able to dodge attacks adds dynamics to combat). I mean, progressing, afterall, is the object of the game is it not? I really don't want to invoke Godwin's law here, but Blizz is bordering on it right about now.

I don't want the game to be a cake walk, I just want it to be fun. I completed hell difficulty the other night on my Monk, and that was fun (most of the time). Didn't faceroll it, but I was able to progress fairly comfortably, and many elite packs were challenging but beatable. Only maybe a handful of times between Act 1 and 4 did I have to skip any packs (combos like Frozen, Molten, and Shielding were just a bit much for me to handle but otherwise it wasn't too bad). My Barb DID faceroll hell, but that was different because he was over geared and had very high DPS throughout. My Monk had a nice challenge in hell mode, but it rarely felt tedious or unfun. Now, I'm not saying Inferno shouldn't be harder than Hell, but I just think it needs to be a lot more reasonable and less item dependent than it is. In hell, I felt like it was a combo of player skill and gear. Sometimes when my Monk struggled, I just needed to change some skills and make my tactics tighter, and I was good to go. Other times, that wasnt enough, and a direct item upgrade (usually dps) was needed. In Inferno though, it just feels like its all about gear and gear only. That just sucks. My Wiz is waaaaaaay over geared for hell now, but under geared for Inferno. It is of my opinion the gear I have now should be good enough for me to progress without it being tedious, and I just make upgrades until my char can dominate it. Then I move on to the next char. I realize Blizz wants a challenge to always be there, but all things must end at some point - except time itself of course. After a char is strong enough to faceroll Inferno, you can try new builds with that char or re-roll a new char, or play PvP.